EV conversions

[monkie]

28 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Technology is has considerably reduced carbon output. Now that fuel sourcing from waste plastic has been finalised and proven, there is an enourmous sourceof fuel available. ICE vehicles are (at present) longer lasting with a much smaller carbon hole, than EV's (and EV's carbon hole is huge). 

But that doesn't demonstrate that ICE is sustainable. Its proven again and again that extracting stuff from the ground and burning it is not sustainable. Even IF fuel were to be sourced from plastic, it is still ultimately coming from oil which is a finite resource.

Yes EVs have their own issues to be addressed, but this is a completely separate question to the sustainability of ICE. 

[Snagger]

Using waste plastics to create fuel will be an enormous feather in the cap of ICE sustainability, along with biofuels and synthetic fuels.  They don’t need to compete with EVs - the two systems can complement each other, EVs being so well suited to cities and towns where they are most efficient and where air quality and noise are important considerations, and helping to reduce the need for fuels, while ICE running on the later fuels will reduce grid demand, provide the long range and heavy transport needs and also allow for flexibility when there are grid problems, like EVs can provide options when there are fuel distribution issues.  They should be seen as a symbiotic solution, not a cut throat binary decision.

 

I saw this last night and though it interesting.  It is in the western US, but seems to match what I hear from the UK and presents a similar debate.  It’s by an ardent EV supporter (who used to present some videos for Fully Charged), so is not anti EV at all, but it highlights a big issue.

 

[reb78]

At least using waste plastic for fuel production should mean that less of the damn stuff ends up polluting the oceans. I despair at the impossible task of not using plastic. Its everywhere! So much of it just gets sent of for incineration anyway (labelled as recycling ) that we may as well convert it to fuel and burn it that way. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by reb78

[FridgeFreezer]

Burning plastic to generate power to run EV's would be more efficient, ICE engines are very poor at converting energy to motion - I think it's been said it's more efficient / friendly to run an EV on energy produced from fossil fuels than it is to pour it directly into the tank and run an ICE vehicle on it, even accounting for losses in transmission etc.

Also not sure where the idea that EV's aren't as long-lived as ICE vehicles comes from, surely it's a bit early to really tell?

[monkie]

I agree totally with stopping as much plastic as possible getting into the oceans and also the ability to repurpose things rather than dumping them where ever possible is great and I think we should be doing this... But, do we not all agree that burning things is ultimately not sustainable in the long term? I don't think it is, which is why I wanted to highlight that statement. 

Surely as a species, we ultimately need to go down a path that leads to the ability to source our energy from not burning resources and releasing the waste poducts into the atmosphere? 

[Nonimouse]

25 minutes ago, monkie said:

I

 

Surely as a species, we ultimately need to go down a path that leads to the ability to source our energy from not burning resources and releasing the waste poducts into the atmosphere? 

Absolutely, couldn't agree more, but as a species, we aren't ready to make the sacrifice that needs, nor are we ready practicably

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Burning plastic to generate power to run EV's would be more efficient, ICE engines are very poor at converting energy to motion - I think it's been said it's more efficient / friendly to run an EV on energy produced from fossil fuels than it is to pour it directly into the tank and run an ICE vehicle on it, even accounting for losses in transmission etc.

Also not sure where the idea that EV's aren't as long-lived as ICE vehicles comes from, surely it's a bit early to really tell?

One of the benefits of "static" ICE generation is that you can tune the engine for optimal efficiency and you can better capture "waste" energy. For example (my memory is a little hazy so bear with me) my old department at Imperial achieved >90% efficient ICE electricity generation because they used I think it was gas inside (what used to be a) diesel engine. But all the excess heat was captured and used for central heating within the campus and the Royal Albert Hall which accounts for most of the inefficiency of vehicle based systems.

[Nonimouse]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:12 PM, Ed Poore said:

One of the benefits of "static" ICE generation is that you can tune the engine for optimal efficiency and you can better capture "waste" energy. For example (my memory is a little hazy so bear with me) my old department at Imperial achieved >90% efficient ICE electricity generation because they used I think it was gas inside (what used to be a) diesel engine. But all the excess heat was captured and used for central heating within the campus and the Royal Albert Hall which accounts for most of the inefficiency of vehicle based systems.

Down at the farm, we have, in the stores, a 9.5 litre V8 Gen set, that used to be the back up generator for Bath Uni. It produces 90bhp at 1,100rpm and is designed to run on gas - it was built from a Diesel lump

Edited September 10, 2022 by western
Rpm amount adjusted,

[monkie]

51 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Absolutely, couldn't agree more, but as a species, we aren't ready to make the sacrifice that needs, nor are we ready practicably

I think, accelerated by the war in Ukraine and the damage we are continuing to do to our environment, our hand is forced if we like it or not. Sacrifices are going to be made one way or another as I see it. Either we choose which sacrifices we make and adjust or sacrifices will be forced upon us as a consequence of ignoring warnings. 

[Nonimouse]

3 minutes ago, monkie said:

I think, accelerated by the war in Ukraine and the damage we are continuing to do to our environment, our hand is forced if we like it or not. Sacrifices are going to be made one way or another as I see it. Either we choose which sacrifices we make and adjust or sacrifices will be forced upon us as a consequence of ignoring warnings. 

Look around you and you will see it's more likely to be the latter

[monkie]

Agree, so you can only conclude from that that we are a really stupid species walking into a disaster of our own making. Continually making the wrong choices even though warnings are being given. 

[Anderzander]

I thought these were good:

4 episodes, 6 mins long. This video is of them all put together.

[Nonimouse]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:16 PM, Nonimouse said:

Down at the farm, we have, in the stores, a 9.5 litre V8 Gen set, that used to be the back up generator for Bath Uni. It produces 90bhp at 11,000rpm and is designed to run on gas - it was built from a Diesel lump

That should say 1,100rpm

Amount has been edited in the previous post 👍

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Burning plastic to generate power to run EV's would be more efficient, ICE engines are very poor at converting energy to motion - I think it's been said it's more efficient / friendly to run an EV on energy produced from fossil fuels than it is to pour it directly into the tank and run an ICE vehicle on it, even accounting for losses in transmission etc.

Also not sure where the idea that EV's aren't as long-lived as ICE vehicles comes from, surely it's a bit early to really tell?

From what I understand, it’s quite the opposite.  Apart from the fact that most EVs are pretty new and so their body shells have more modern anti corrosion remedies, electric motors have very few moving parts to wear, many not even using brushes or contacts, no coolant in the motors to cause corrosion and simpler, more robust transmissions.  There really is a lot to admire about them.

[deep]

8 hours ago, monkie said:

Agree, so you can only conclude from that that we are a really stupid species walking into a disaster of our own making. Continually making the wrong choices even though warnings are being given. 

This is the aspect of humanity that amazes me the most.  Except it is not really stupidity at fault.  It's that massive weakness in most of us that wants to indulge to the max.  It's so strong that it completely overcomes any fear of the future, bringing on wild optimism ("someone will come up with something"), wild pessimism ("we're all going to die anyway, let's enjoy ourselves now") or just the more common "I don't want to know" attitude.  Even though the information is out there, the majority of people either act like they don't care or do something like buy an electric car or recycle some plastic and carry on like that has fixed it.  It hasn't.

[miketomcat]

12 hours ago, deep said:

This is the aspect of humanity that amazes me the most.  Except it is not really stupidity at fault.  It's that massive weakness in most of us that wants to indulge to the max.  It's so strong that it completely overcomes any fear of the future, bringing on wild optimism ("someone will come up with something"), wild pessimism ("we're all going to die anyway, let's enjoy ourselves now") or just the more common "I don't want to know" attitude.  Even though the information is out there, the majority of people either act like they don't care or do something like buy an electric car or recycle some plastic and carry on like that has fixed it.  It hasn't.

Worse still is you get trapped in a life where you can't do anything anyway. I want to do so much but can't do any of it because of regulations or the cost of doing it to regulations. I'm trapped where I couldn't buy a house to do the environmental thing because I need the job to pay for it which is in an area that I could do what I would like to but can't afford to live there. Round and round it goes. Modern ideals have forced us into an unsustainable life, I tell my kids if they want to do more for the environment it starts with less electronics, less throw away and less waste. I still can't get them off their tablets, to turn off lights put jumpers on........

Mike

[monkie]

39 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

Worse still is you get trapped in a life where you can't do anything anyway. I want to do so much but can't do any of it because of regulations or the cost of doing it to regulations. I'm trapped where I couldn't buy a house to do the environmental thing because I need the job to pay for it which is in an area that I could do what I would like to but can't afford to live there. Round and round it goes. Modern ideals have forced us into an unsustainable life, I tell my kids if they want to do more for the environment it starts with less electronics, less throw away and less waste. I still can't get them off their tablets, to turn off lights put jumpers on........

Mike

What is it that you want to do but can't because of regulations? 

[miketomcat]

5 hours ago, monkie said:

What is it that you want to do but can't because of regulations? 

To honest it's more to do with costs involved. I'm more than capable of building my own eco house at a very reasonable cost. However round here the land alone is more than the house I live in. I could use upcycled materials but they dont meet current regulations or you can't prove that they do. I also live on the edge of a nation park which hinders things further. Don't get me wrong I'm not bemoaning regulations and I understand if they weren't there...... It's just it's all biased to having lots of money or being a big builder.

Mike

Sorry we've dived off topic a bit.

[monkie]

2 hours ago, miketomcat said:

To honest it's more to do with costs involved. I'm more than capable of building my own eco house at a very reasonable cost. However round here the land alone is more than the house I live in. I could use upcycled materials but they dont meet current regulations or you can't prove that they do. I also live on the edge of a nation park which hinders things further. Don't get me wrong I'm not bemoaning regulations and I understand if they weren't there...... It's just it's all biased to having lots of money or being a big builder.

Mike

Sorry we've dived off topic a bit.

I see, I was curious. How about some sort of eco camper (if there is such a thing, and it starts to steer the conversation back towards cars/vans)? 

[deep]

11 hours ago, miketomcat said:

Worse still is you get trapped in a life where you can't do anything anyway. I want to do so much but can't do any of it because of regulations or the cost of doing it to regulations. I'm trapped where I couldn't buy a house to do the environmental thing because I need the job to pay for it which is in an area that I could do what I would like to but can't afford to live there. Round and round it goes. Modern ideals have forced us into an unsustainable life, I tell my kids if they want to do more for the environment it starts with less electronics, less throw away and less waste. I still can't get them off their tablets, to turn off lights put jumpers on........

Mike

You have my deep sympathy.  I lived in the south of England for a few months many years ago and was appalled at the situation country workers found themselves in.  You should be reassured that, just by caring and thinking about the future consequences of how we live, you are doing better than most and something will definitely stick with your kids.  Just watch it happen!

I've decided my dire current circumstances also have given me an opportunity.  I am standing for regional council in our local elections.  Regional councils here are tasked with certain aspects of environmental management and public transport.  I really hope I can get voted on, so that I can help steer public thinking to less trendy and more logical solutions, not to mention towards a more cooperative and less blame-slinging culture.  We will see!  Inevitably, the topic of electric vehicles will come up for debate...

Can you imagine local authorities considering electric conversions rather than full-on vehicle replacement for short run transport?  These ideas must be rattling around thousands of authorities across our planet these days.

[simonr]

On a more cheerful note 🙂

This is the first road run of my EV converted Polaris General (with a tiny 'off road' bit too).

This has been my project over the last few weeks.  If you're interested, I've written most of it up here DIYElectricCar.com

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, simonr said:

On a more cheerful note 🙂

This is the first road run of my EV converted Polaris General (with a tiny 'off road' bit too).

This has been my project over the last few weeks.  If you're interested, I've written most of it up here DIYElectricCar.com

Oh by the way I've built myself an electric car..........

How awesome really, you are the man...Regards Stephen

[Arjan]

Nice !

[FridgeFreezer]

@simonr that's awesome, I'm reading the thread now. Also seeing the fact that forum exists and the amount of stuff available out there for DIY'ing a conversion gives me a lot of optimism about the future of DIY EV conversions for the masses.

Can I ask what sort of costs are involved in something like this these days?

[simonr]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Can I ask what sort of costs are involved in something like this these days?

I spent about £7.5k.  Batteries were £2k of that, for 13.5kWh.  For a regular vehicle (heavier than this, Actually Don Incol's Lightweight LR) a rule of thumb seems to be Pack kWh x 2.5 = Range in miles.

Based on being half the weight, but about the same drag coefficient, I'm betting on 50m+ range at 30mph & 30m range at 50mph.

So, for a 100m range in a Land Rover using new batteries, I would expect to pay about £15k for the bits.  If you use 'pre-loved' batteries and maybe a Nissan Leaf motor (which has been thoroughly hacked now, using a 'Thunderstruck' controller), a bit less maybe.

The main thing I would change is I were starting over would be to use pre-made battery modules.  The amount of extra thinking & construction that needs to go into making your own with heating, cooling & management - isn't worth it!