Hydro winch install musings

[miketomcat]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

 

@Escape thanks for the good info - I think the H14 being worm drive skews a lot of the speed calculations much as @miketomcat found, respooling could be a real chore.

To be fair respooling the 525 is no problem in 4th or 5th you just get a little shaft whip. It's paying out that's a pain when the freespool is buggered  it's fine when it's working. I tend to winch in 2nd sometimes 3rd if the load is lighter but it isn't that slow and the fact it doesn't stop or really slow at all makes up for that. 

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

The more I look round the more I'm being drawn to some sort of direct mechanical solution...

 

Wonder what the offset is on one of these... would be nice to be using gen parts if a little overkill.

[landroversforever]

6 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The more I look round the more I'm being drawn to some sort of direct mechanical solution...

 

Wonder what the offset is on one of these... would be nice to be using gen parts if a little overkill.

Two speed!  

[Bowie69]

Use a P38 version and they are electrically shifted, no?

[Daan]

No reverse though. I had a plan worked out to do it using epicyclic gears; 2 gear sets out of an automatic gearbox; one brake band on the first epicyclic to work winch in, the other brake band on the second epicyclic to winch out. 2 levers in the cab to work either brake, one lever for winch in, one for winch out.

But as with most of my ideas it is one that did not make it to reality, just to much work to spend the time on. I have about a hundred ideas before I have  one that I think is worth taking to reality.

Good to hear you are ditching the hydraulics though! keep it simple is the future.

Daan

[elbekko]

18 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Use a P38 version and they are electrically shifted, no?

Yup. Very simple to control too, all the limit switches are inside the motor.

Seems a bit overkill though

[miketomcat]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334580255807?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ppGdFmaXQf-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=rj9sNdGlTqa&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

(I sent it to fridge earlier )

Mike

[steve b]

No, just no. Off a maybe 10hp ride on. Looks like a Peerless copy and if so bugger all bearings inside. 

An industrial epicyclic forward/reverse box would be a much more workable option. Just need to find a used one somewhere instead of new.

 While I enjoy the vapour what if, I'm still in favour of the hyd. set up - crank pump or pto pump will work plenty well. A bigger flow pump and optimised motor choice for speed/torque will do all required imo.

Steve

[Escape]

17 hours ago, elbekko said:

Yup. Very simple to control too, all the limit switches are inside the motor.

Seems a bit overkill though

You will need my all-relays replacement for the ECU though (patent pending 😉 ).

[dangerous doug]

May have missed the reason but why not just fit a mechanical pto like me and daan have done? It’s the lighter and faster solution 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, dangerous doug said:

May have missed the reason but why not just fit a mechanical pto like me and daan have done? It’s the lighter and faster solution 

Because I don't have a drop-PTO and they mean you're linking gearbox & transfer box into the winching operation, so you end up with a load of juggling of levers to work the winch and/or/not drive the wheels.

Crank drive is operational if the engine is running and you can do what you want with the gearbox & transfer box while it's running.

Hydraulic gives the best/easiest operation - one lever to engage the pump and then a nice easy over-centre valve to winch in/out - but the plumbing adds up a bit quickly in cost & complexity & packaging.

Mechanical (if it can be done sensibly) would be the most simple given I'm effectively transmitting drive from the crank to the winch which is about 18" to the left of the crank and in the same plane.

 

I'm still weighing it all up and exploring ideas here - trying to work with the bits I have, not spend huge amounts of money, and end up with something that is as simple & robust as it can be. May be hydraulic, may be mechanical. To some degree it depends what turns up on eBay or in a scrapyard for the right money

[Ed Poore]

Speaking from experience but how much attention are you going to have to pay to balancing the drive system to take power off the crank?

(I'm assuming direct drive off the crank rather than another pulley?)

My crank pulley went out of balance and snapped two Tdi crankshafts before we realised what the issue was.

[Bowie69]

So... how about a boat/marine gearbox?

There's a few water-born people on here, so perhaps you can get better advice from them.... but should be robust, has forward and reverse, cable operated.... and can come in different ratios.

[steve b]

17 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

So... how about a boat/marine gearbox?

There's a few water-born people on here, so perhaps you can get better advice from them.... but should be robust, has forward and reverse, cable operated.... and can come in different ratios.

Excellent idea, just need to find a mate in the industry...

Steve

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

Speaking from experience but how much attention are you going to have to pay to balancing the drive system to take power off the crank?

For a short run, not too much. Mouse's crank drive was a maybe 8-12" long mini-propshaft and it worked beautifully, also I'm considering doing it like the old capstan winches where the driveshaft was sprung and engaged with the starter dog, so you could pop it in at the beginning of the day and remove it at the end.

 

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

So... how about a boat/marine gearbox?

If one shows up, maybe - I'd had a glance round eBlag and the like but they tend to be quite chunky monkeys for what I need.

[Bowie69]

How much power do you realistically think you'll be putting through it?

[toenden]

50 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

How much power do you realistically think you'll be putting through it?

I don't know how much you need, but I have "switched off" my engine with a crank driven winch more than once. First time it was only idling, but then I offcourse tried with some throtle 😇 -and it did it again... THEN we found another way of doing things 🤣

The engine is a 300 Tdi, not the biggest but some power it needs to able to tackle.

My prop is about 12 cm and it runs just fine (so far)/no ill effects. 

/mads

[Daan]

14 minutes ago, toenden said:

I don't know how much you need, but I have "switched off" my engine with a crank driven winch more than once. First time it was only idling, but then I offcourse tried with some throtle 😇 -and it did it again... THEN we found another way of doing things 🤣

The engine is a 300 Tdi, not the biggest but some power it needs to able to tackle.

My prop is about 12 cm and it runs just fine (so far)/no ill effects. 

/mads

Pictures?

[Bowie69]

1 hour ago, toenden said:

I don't know how much you need, but I have "switched off" my engine with a crank driven winch more than once. First time it was only idling, but then I offcourse tried with some throtle 😇 -and it did it again... THEN we found another way of doing things 🤣

The engine is a 300 Tdi, not the biggest but some power it needs to able to tackle.

My prop is about 12 cm and it runs just fine (so far)/no ill effects. 

/mads

So about 3-4 HP then

 

[miketomcat]

7 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

So... how about a boat/marine gearbox?

There's a few water-born people on here, so perhaps you can get better advice from them.... but should be robust, has forward and reverse, cable operated.... and can come in different ratios.

Most marine gearboxes are either ludicrously heavy or very expensive. 

Mike

[muddy]

Have you calculated the ratio change required to run it mechanically to make sure it can be packaged? 

A small feeder wagon gearbox might do? comer make many gearboxs.

[toenden]

13 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

So about 3-4 HP then

 

Yes! The lesser known fact about the name 300 is, that it is means "from 3 - 100 hp" 🙂

@Daanpictures will follow.

/mads

[Jon W]

The 525 PTO driven by shafts we had on Darth and I 90 was ok but the let down was the PTO shafts needing lots of maintenance and being hard to grease without stripping apart. So hydraulic would seem to solve that.

As mike said spooling in was Done in 4th or 5th but shafts were noisy. Winching was done in 2nd and 3rd mainly. 
The main issue was not being able to drive assist so on steep hills it would pull you into the hill rather than up it putting a lot of strain on things, or in deep middle would build a massive amount of muddy in front of it, deep clay mud wasn’t so bad as could spin the wheels but they would’ve massively faster than the winch. 
If you could have crank driven and an under drive it would be a perfect combo for self recovery.

Free spool was easy to engage and if I had kept it I would have got an air freespool made up.

In the end I sold it and went for ease of fitting and use and went for a second hand ep9 which is fine for the amount of work I give it. Most work is moving trees about and the odd self recovery

 

 

 

 

[toenden]

17 hours ago, Daan said:

Pictures?

Here! The shaft isn't attached, but I think you get the picture. Please let me know if touch need a picture of It attached. 

/mads

[simonr]

I think this is a good & worthwhile project, from an engineering perspective.  If Jon can find a good solution, it has potential to deliver more than a Hydraulic* or PTO drive.

* Hydraulic could deliver everything this could, using a variable displacement pump / motor.  However, they tend to be expensive & hard to find second hand.  Also, often, you find the pressure required for the swash plate actuator is higher than the motor input / output of the pump.  It's straightforward to drive through a pressure multiplier - but it's an extra level of complexity.

I quite like @Daan's idea of using planetary units from an auto-box with actuated brake bands - but this is a significant & high precision fabrication job, where Jon's seems to be more modular with limited modification / fabrication involved.

I've used both reversing boxes & CVT's from Go Karts.  I would bet someone makes one with both combined into a single 'lump'.  Some of them are quite nicely made too.  Even one using bushings instead of bearings would likely be OK as the duty cycle of a winch is very low compared to a Kart.

Since the winch is worm-drive, it means that even if the transmission fails, the winch is unlikely to back-drive very fast, if at all.