200TDi parts availability/obsolescence management

[twodoorgaz]

Hi all.

I’m about to commit to a nut and bolt restoration of a 2-door factory 200TDi Range Rover. It’ll take a couple of years and a lot of money.

I often read comments about 200TDi parts availability being limited. I remember Terri-Ann Wakeman writing about this on her site some 15 years ago - specifically citing cylinder heads being NLA and suspect a lot of the commentary started there.

 

I never really understood this: if I wanted a cylinder head I’d buy one second hand and have it refurbished. It wouldn’t enter my head to buy one from Land Rover so being NLA ‘new’ seems like an odd thing to be concerned about.

 

Nonetheless, some parts do seem harder to find than the 300TDi. So it seems prudent to build up a bit of a stock throughout this rebuild.

 

obviously we don’t know exactly what the future will look like in terms of fuel availability, but I’d rather stock up and not need them.

 

so, could anyone suggest those items that, if found cheaply, would be sensible to squirrel away?

 

I’ve already put a crack-tested cylinder head on my list along with a cast exhaust manifold. But what else?

 

I'm planning on keeping the RR for life and am assuming that generic spares and those common to the 300TDi will remain available. I’m looking to gather enough bits to cover me for for day-to-day maintenance as well as one engine rebuild.

Edited March 19, 2023 by twodoorgaz

[Gazzar]

Long term I can see diesel injection servicing equipment being hard to get. Twenty years time will there be non common rail diesels? There is less and less interest in fixing things, even today it's harder to find people messing about with axles and hard core modifications. Except here.

After that. Buy everything in the parts book? Plus several duplicates of timing stuff.

[hurbie]

i would say : 

cilinderheads (altough i've read somewhere that a 300tdi can be made to work) , injectors en injectionpump , timing gear (belts and pulleys) , thermostat housing for the defender spec engine (already very hard to find) , front cover for the timing gear.

and get a replacement engine as complete as you can get it . (and rebuilt it before storing for the long term)

[miketomcat]

Just buy a complete spare engine job done.

Heads and injectors are the only things I'm aware of that are difficult. I had trouble getting a timing chest (disco) about 15 years ago. Oil and vacuum pumps have gotten expensive

Most things can be got round injector nozzles can be changed, 300tdi head can be used if you change to 300 pistons. I believe the injection pumps are basically the same.

Mike

[jeremy996]

I had a great deal of difficulty finding an uncracked 200Tdi head when I needed one, September/October 2018. I ended up testing 5 to find one that was suitable for a rebuild. The engine builder struck out very quickly and made it my problem. 

My original head had cracked from the combustion chamber to a water galley, so I had small consistant water losses, but it was not detected by a sniffer test or by a compression test. The crack was found by a test on the cleaned up head before getting the valve guides reamed, sleeved and the seats recut.

I'd suggest collecting as many heads as you can get cheaply and just get them crack tested, keeping the otherwise unrebuilt heads on the shelf. If you have spairs, they will be gold dust in 10-15 years.

[western]

Just seen this Brand New unused 200Tdi head on Facebook

Price is a LOT 😲

https://www.paddockspares.com/rtc6896-cylinder-head-200tdi.html

[Bowie69]

Honestly, I think that's exceptionally good value.

[Retroanaconda]

I would agree with the above suggestions, manifolds, head, thermostat housing etc. are all a good shout and are worth having spares of.

Defender engines are much rarer and so the specific parts for those are even more worthwhile hoarding. I bought a whole spare engine which has yielded spares, plus a second spare cylinder head.

A 300Tdi head can be fitted but you’d need matching injectors and the injector pump also needs changing, as the timing is very slightly different. It will run with the 200Tdi pump but not optimally.

[landroversforever]

I'd be interested to see how it pans out with JLR and their classic parts product lines that are coming back. As they do stuff like the the early D1 restos.

[Nonimouse]

Cracked heads can be fixed relatively easily. The chemical metal process used on TD5 heads works well on 200 and 300 heads

Injectors are a problem, but I swapped to 300 nozzles in 200 bodies. That way you can get Bosche nozzles

Aux belts - lots of wrong sizes being sold

Core plugs - get Brass marine ones

Biggest issue is lots of cheap carp parts, not many good quality parts

 

[FridgeFreezer]

Anything can be replaced if you're willing to pay - these days with cheap 3D scanning and CNC machining I dare say someone would whittle you a new head if you asked, all the Americans seem to be building V8's with CNC'd heads from any number of suppliers, and billet blocks are mandatory in some classes of drag racing.

I don't share the pessimism that the tools & skills will disappear, they'll just move from cheap everyday mainstream to more niche classic/historic specialists - after all, there's still folks out there who'll build you a steam engine, a spitfire, wire wheels for your e-type or a hand-wheeled alloy body for your vintage Ferrari.

The question I'd be asking is if the 200TDi is worth serious preservation effort, and that depends on you, originality of the vehicle, the value of the vehicle, and your wallet.

 

Edit: Ric Wood will reverse-engineer and whittle you a head if you ask - I'm sure it will be reassuringly expensive... mind you given the popularity of the 200TDi and the age of what's out there I would not be surprised if one of the larger suppliers started getting new heads made in low volumes.

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

Cracked heads can be fixed relatively easily. The chemical metal process used on TD5 heads works well on 200 and 300 heads

I always get mixed answers on this. 

I have three spare heads. One non cracked, one I dont know as its still on the spare engine and a third that came off of my 110 having probably done about 250k miles. I took the head off due to HG failure. The head had cracks between a couple of the valves that I dont think were causing a problem but because I had a good refurbed spare on the shelf I stuck that on.

Can they be welded up, valves seats done and skimmed and end up with a reliable head? The answers are always for one who says yes, another says no.  

[Stellaghost]

13 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I always get mixed answers on this. 

I have three spare heads. One non cracked, one I dont know as its still on the spare engine and a third that came off of my 110 having probably done about 250k miles. I took the head off due to HG failure. The head had cracks between a couple of the valves that I dont think were causing a problem but because I had a good refurbed spare on the shelf I stuck that on.

Can they be welded up, valves seats done and skimmed and end up with a reliable head? The answers are always for one who says yes, another says no.  

I have a spare head that is cracked between valves, have wondered about having a shot at welding it up, more so since I got my spool gun setup, nothing to lose I suppose

Regards Stephen

[Nonimouse]

Our local engine re-builder (est 1897), use a chemical metal to repair cracks. They started using on the 'porus' head TD5's (which is, in reality, lots of likkle cracks), prior to skimming (yes, they can skim TD5 heads). I took a 300 head to them, with the classic 300 cracks from over heating. They sorted that. I asked if it would work for 200's, they replied 'yes, we have doen a few, but there are so few compared to the poorer quality 300's, and we've done loads of those"

So no welding

But why not weld?

[reb78]

10 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

But why not weld?

I dont know. To be fair, you are one of the few people who speaks with experience or relates the experience of others who have done it rather than an 'ooo, I wouldnt do that' but with no reasons as to why...  that you get from others.

I havent had good reasons as to why not to use various approaches just people saying dont do it. I would have thought that clean up, open up and build up with TIG then repair the valve seats and skim would be the ultimate solution, cant see why it wont work but I dont have any experience

[Nonimouse]

9 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I dont know. To be fair, you are one of the few people who speaks with experience or relates the experience of others who have done it rather than an 'ooo, I wouldnt do that' but with no reasons as to why...  that you get from others.

I havent had good reasons as to why not to use various approaches just people saying dont do it. I would have thought that clean up, open up and build up with TIG then repair the valve seats and skim would be the ultimate solution, cant see why it wont work but I dont have any experience

I think the chemical metal process was designed for multiple tiny cracks

I tig'd the crack in my 131 mirafiori twin cam. That was 28 years ago and it's still running in the Niva it was fitted in to

Welding cracked heads was always the go to option in the world before technology said it couldn't be done

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Stellaghost said:

nothing to lose I suppose

This is it - a scrap head is worth scrap value, so may as well have a "crack" at it by the sound of it enough folks here have stockpiles of potential donor heads.

I can see the pros and cons - old cruddy aluminium with complex shapes cast into it may be very hard to weld up successfully, but on the flipside "it's only metal" and metal can be cut, welded, machined...

My default approach is that if someone made it, someone else can probably fix it or re-make it. If you've got a dead one on hand it's always worth a try as you're not going to make it any more scrap and you might learn something.

Does anyone know what causes the cracks - is there some weakness / design flaw that can be improved upon or modded around to stop it happening?

Can you tell I know nothing about TDis?

[Nonimouse]

23 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

This is it - a scrap head is worth scrap value, so may as well have a "crack" at it by the sound of it enough folks here have stockpiles of potential donor heads.

I can see the pros and cons - old cruddy aluminium with complex shapes cast into it may be very hard to weld up successfully, but on the flipside "it's only metal" and metal can be cut, welded, machined...

My default approach is that if someone made it, someone else can probably fix it or re-make it. If you've got a dead one on hand it's always worth a try as you're not going to make it any more scrap and you might learn something.

Does anyone know what causes the cracks - is there some weakness / design flaw that can be improved upon or modded around to stop it happening?

Can you tell I know nothing about TDis?

200 heads aren't cruddy - actually very good quality casting and too expensive.  Generally cracked because of over heating, which is not easy to do, because they have a huge water jacket and low pump. However high EGT's will do for them. Most cracks are btween the glowplug and the valves. I don't think the head flexes much, but it does a bit.

 

300 heads were made by a bloke in safety sandals, working in a hut in rural Turkey. They melted down old greenhouse frames, on a charcoal BBQ....

[FridgeFreezer]

53 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

200 heads aren't cruddy

After 20+ years rattling round with oil, coolant, diesel and soot I would beg to differ - I'm sure they're lovely castings of finest quality but getting them clean enough inside & out to weld nicely could be a challenge for many.

[Daan]

Problem is that the moment you weld, the aluminum turns to cheese. So the material next to the weld is now a weak point. and the head does see big pressures above the combustion chambers, as well as local temperatures reaching 700 degrees. Both together is a good way to show weaknesses.

So if you have the choice, avoiding welding would be preferable. Of course, the classic car crowd has been successfully welding heads and blocks for years because if there is nothing else available you have no choice.

I don't see the big problem, an ebay search reveals at least 10 200 heads, and 2 pages of 300 heads. If a 300 head fits a 200, there is even less of a problem. I have yet to see much evidence of the 300 being a bad engine myself (just don't bash the sump to a rock like I did once!). I much prefer the 300 for reasons of supply and cost of parts.

[Nonimouse]

24 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

After 20+ years rattling round with oil, coolant, diesel and soot I would beg to differ - I'm sure they're lovely castings of finest quality but getting them clean enough inside & out to weld nicely could be a challenge for many.

Picks up phone to local industrial cleaning service. "ah, hello, yes, I have some items that need complelety clean of grease and oil, please"

Two days and 30 quid later

[Nonimouse]

2 minutes ago, Daan said:

Problem is that the moment you weld, the aluminum turns to cheese. So the material next to the weld is now a weak point. and the head does see big pressures above the combustion chambers, as well as local temperatures reaching 700 degrees. Both together is a good way to show weaknesses.

So if you have the choice, avoiding welding would be preferable. Of course, the classic car crowd has been successfully welding heads and blocks for years because if there is nothing else available you have no choice.

I don't see the big problem, an ebay search reveals at least 10 200 heads, and 2 pages of 300 heads. If a 300 head fits a 200, there is even less of a problem. I have yet to see much evidence of the 300 being a bad engine myself (just don't bash the sump to a rock like I did once!). I much prefer the 300 for reasons of supply and cost of parts.

How many miles have you put on your 300 since you fitted it?

[Daan]

about 30.000 from new. Not necessarily talking about my engine, but general failures at events.

Daan

[landroversforever]

13 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Picks up phone to local industrial cleaning service. "ah, hello, yes, I have some items that need complelety clean of grease and oil, please"

Two days and 30 quid later

Even that though isn't great for cast stuff. The better the quality the lower the chance, but it will still have a chance of contamination. 

[reb78]

29 minutes ago, Daan said:

and 2 pages of 300 heads. If a 300 head fits a 200, there is even less of a problem. I

Trouble is, a 300 head physically fits a 200 but everything is in the wrong place - i.e. injectors no longer match the dish in the pistons etc so its not ideal even if people have made it run like that.