Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 For those who know I would be interested in thougytrs .... On a serp V8, remove the Compressor, then using the same mounting unit drop in a Hydro Pump with a serp pulley fitted so the unit sits and replaces the old V8 Air Con pump with a dog clutch to enagage disengage.. Q is (and I have a feeling the answer may be "Non!" is would this belt be man enough to drive the Pump, rather than the Spoket & Chain setups more commonly used ? Thoughts ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will4x4 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Nigel we are looking into the same ....all the reading i have done suggests 'NO' as could slip especially when wet...proving useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Our wood chipper's pump is belt driven but the belt is mahoosive and still it stretches. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Milemaker type s on here had this system a while ago and ran with 2 power steering pumps on 2 seperate belts, it ran OK dry and with no load but once the pumps needed to supply pressure especially when they were wet or muddy it slipped. It maybe possible to rig something up if you use a relatively small pump and put a big pulley on it but it would make the winch slow. The bigger the pulley you use the more you would gear it down and the more contact area you would have with the belt to provide drive but the slower it pumps. Unless this is the only viable option or you are happy with a slow winch I would look at a direct drive off the crank if you have room or the toothed belt (cam belt style?) that red winches use on there system, I had a few doubt over the toothed belt but the reports from people who have used it seem good and it will almost certainly be quieter than a chain drive system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 No! There is a reason that modern cars use serpentine flat belts as they can transmit more power. A V belt struggles to drive an alternator much above 50amps so there is no way you'll drive a hydraulic pump off of it. I cant keep the belt on the mondeo alternator on my truck tight and it slips and squeals like a little pig when its wet! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonost24 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Wouldn't there be a POWERGRIP belt and pulley you could use/adapt, Nige???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 There are different grades of vee belts, and they can transmit surprising amounts of power, especially in the larger sizes, and in multiples. Some of the more expensive belts can transmit quite a bit more than the vanilla version in the same size. A lot of agricultural machinery uses them as they do ultimately provide a 'fuse' if something seizes, and multiples give some redundancy. See Fenner's site for the calculations etc, their examples are for many kWs. They might take up too much space though. The poly-vee serpentine type belts can transmit a lot of power for their size, and absorb less than the traditional vees. Again I think Fenners gives you calculators for sizes etc. For a winch drive where you might get sudden shocks, a belt will have some give, ie a momentary slip or stretch to cushion and absorb the shock, where a toothed belt or chain won't. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 It would be a serp flat belt, not a V type ???? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 How about a toothed belt - like a Tdi timing belt? Pulleys and belts available off the shelf... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 landrover used a 4gang V belt drive to drive welders etc IIRC transmits bout 30bhp I think . Harley davidson use a toothed belt for final drive 1200cc not sure what horse power . Robinson R22 uses rubber belt drive as well so ther e is plenty of scope but room is the problem , I had a 4 man hovercraft and tht used a toothed belt from engine to bevel box 1800cc VW engine that was 3inches wide . HTSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Hold on I am thinking of just popping a Hydro Pump in the exact pos the a/c pump is now, and thus use the existing std Serp belt, toothed belts etc would mean the pulley on the pump (with say a 300TDi) pulley on would be ok, but none of the other pulleys would So, std Serp belt is the Q ? ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 In a nutshell No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Well, I disagree with all (most) of you! A 7v Poly-vee belt can transmit about 30Hp whereas a 13mm V belt is limited to about 10Hp and at that it will be trying to catch fire! OK, the power is the product of the torque and the speed (rpm) - so it may be a case of choosing a smaller displacement pump and running it faster - but it's unlikely your winch will be drawing much over 30Hp. The other key factors are the degree of wrap and the tension. The amount of contact on the crank pulley is likely to be plenty - but on the smaller pump pulley it would be worth adding an idler to increase the wrap as much as you can. Spring loaded tensioners tend to work better for poly-vee. In the past I have run a jet wash pump (a big one) and a 7kva Generator designed to run at 1500 rpm - both of which required significant torque. Both caused regular V belts to catch fire under full load - but were effortless with a Poly-Vee. There will be a speed/torque balance which will work. Timing belt is IMHO a safer option than chain. If you choose the right one (again for the torque & speed) it will easily handle the power required. I don't know if you can still get it - but there used to be a thing called 'Ladder Chain' which was a polymer coated ladder made from steel cable. This was fantastic for high torque applications and a bit less damaging than chain if it breaks. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Would a 13v Poly-vee belt be able to transmit the required power when under water though? That's the main issue to over-come I think, and could be achieved with a toothed one such as a timing belt, although I don't think they will tolerate a big amount of misalignment so the bracketry would have to be well made! The other issue is what happens when it picks up a load of stones/grit/mud between the belt and the pulleys? Unless you can find a belt designed to work in this environment, it may not like it what with the high power being transmitted. Alternator belts tend to do okay with this though, so maybe not too much of a problem. Anything other than the standard Poly-vee belt would require modifications to either the crank pulley (add a pulley) and possibly to the other ancillaries (change their pulleys to match). The best option has got to be a direct drive off the crank surely? Either engine-mounted, or chassis mounted with a short propshaft and UJ assembly. A question of space of course, but if you were going to move the radiator to the rear as per your recent thread on cooling, you'd have more room there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Another trick I've seen is to cut channels diagonally across the width of the pulley (just saw-blade width) which act as drainage ditches to carry water out of the Vee's. It means that water getting sucked in between the belt & pulley has somewhere to escape. That way, worst case you will only loose drive for the gap between any two channels. The pulley I saw this on was part submerged and shedding water from the sides like a fire-hose! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calle-fas Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Very very interesting topic as I would like to do the same on my Td5. Running on PTO but drive assist is impossible with my winch. Have got a 40CC pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forkrentfitter Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 i know it was not what you asked,but the toothed belt is the way to go,hydraulic test rigs for aircraft use toothed belts to drive their pumps,so well up to the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berti1554 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I agree w/ simonr. Driving the pump w/ a poly v belt shouldn't be a problem. I like the idea w/ the channels across the pulley to let the water drain out. I had a smaller hydraulic pump on my older SIII for the snowplow. It was driven by a standard 9.5mm v-belt w/o any problems robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitmole Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Evening all, Will just add a small note on the ability of polyvee to transmit power. Was driving along at 30 mph one night about 7 years ago in my 300tdi 110, started to feel like it was out of power very slightly and slowed down, I thought the engine was seizing up and dipped the clutch, soon as I did that, the engine stopped dead. Coasted to a halt and did some checks, lots of oil, normal temp etc but would not turn over. All the signs of a seized engine but this wasn't, the rear bearing in the alt had tho, it locked solid and stopped the engine via the belt drive. Not snapped, or burned out the belt, just dragged engine to a halt as it seized up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I have seen that too ^^^ they can make some smoke in the process but right enough it will drag the engine down though I don't know how many HP a Tdi produces at idle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 ...wheres that recent picture of HfH stuck in a water trough up to the wing tops in muddy water whilst marshalling? Yep polyvee belts do grip well with the right tension and wrap , and toothed belts will transmit plenty of power/torque , as will correctly spec'd vee belts, but the only thing that will work under water/mud and allow for gearing down so the pump isn't over revved would be chain drive imho. A dog clutch at the crank drive to isolate when not in use would be simples , as would basic guards . A more radical engineering solution would be to mod the engine to pick up drive from the front of the camshaft... cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm in favour of using the standard serpentine belt, and am working on a similar setup for my P38a. On the Defender I first used a V-belt for the pump (30cc), mainly because the electromagnetic clutch that came with the pump was only available with a V-belt pulley (acutally designed for twin belts, but that required too much room). Regretted this very soon, as mentionned when wet and during hard pulls the 13mm V-belt would slip, despite being set up very tight. We replaced it with a chain but had to switch to a dogclutch as well (not being able to fit the chain wheel to the electromagnetic clutch) which did very good untill the clutch mechanisme broke in the middle of a Russian swamp... For the P38a I have chosen a much smaller pump, only 8.5cc, but capable of higher revs. I intend to fit it instead of the aircon compressor and drive it via the standard serpentine belt, just like you. The electromagnetic clutch came with a pully for a polybelt and is rated to 100Nm, so I'm assuming it will be OK. The reason for chosing a smaller pump is the vehicle wont be used in winch-challenges, so loaded speed is less important. For respooling, the high-gear, if necessary combined with higher revs, should make it plenty fast for comfort. I found on the Defender high gear was rarely used because it was too fast for comfort for the winch-bitch (and could get dangerous). The sacrifice in speed does mean the power requirements are much lower, so I'm confident the standard belt should have no problems with it. Not sure how it is on your engine, but on the GEMS V8 the belt actually covers a greater angle on the aircon pulley than on the crankshaft pulley, so I expect it to slip there. Which would immediately register through the alternator charging indicator. I do plan on carrying a standard non-airco belt in case something goes wrong. But to allow this fix, it's important none of the other pulley's are changed off course. Greetz, Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 As mentioned above, this will work when its dry, but if your stuck in water to the bonnet, not a hope IMO. However, what you can do is using this setup in addition to the PTO setup thats there already. So use the fanbelt setup for normal use, if it gets wet/ big pulls use the PTO. You even could run both pumps in parallel for an even faster winch operation. Still you could do away with all that hydraulic stuff and fit a dibnah winch.... Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I tried to use a 7pk belt to drive a 35cc pump once, i had over 225 degrees of wrap on both the crank and pump. the belt slipped under load in the workshop, i didn't bother trying it offroad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj_4x4 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Hold on I am thinking of just popping a Hydro Pump in the exact pos the a/c pump is now, and thus use the existing std Serp belt, toothed belts etc would mean the pulley on the pump (with say a 300TDi) pulley on would be ok, but none of the other pulleys would Nige Nige, mine is driven by a toothed belt driven directly off the crank via a modified pulley, works faultlessly above and below water RED Winches do kits for 200/300Tdi's not sure how the serp on your V8 is routed, can you use part of the 300Tdi system ? If not, let me have some details, I can ask them to look into it as I know they are keen to make systems for TD5 and V8's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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