Where has all the projects gone?

[Soren Frimodt]

For some time now I have noticed, that not only on this Board, but seemingly on all others as well, build-threads with people's mods and more or less crazy build-ups, are getting fewer and farther between.

Any ideas as to why? When I started on this forum it seemed like everybody and his Dog were doing engine swaps, or axle swaps or winch mods etc etc.

Surely it cannot simply be down to the "economical crisis" that the Banks have brought upon us?

Low funds should inspire even more creativity one should think?

I would really appreciate all sorts of input, and am intrigued as to what other Boarders views are on this matter

[mickeyw]

I have been feeling for some time that there are less posts in general on here than there used to be. Also that coincides with many of the regular interesting posters seemingly disappearing.

My current highlights seem to limited the next episode of Nige and JeffR's injuries tales.

That said, I have enjoyed Sam's MS installation thread. Packed with useful info and stories of his learning process, and plenty of pictures too.

Where are these old faces going? Have they been scared away by those that frown on the associated bit of banter?

I have never posted a project or my vehicle thread. This is largely down to my struggling to find time to carry out said projects, never mind write a lengthy post about them.

I've owned my Ninety for 19 years now, and owned a Land rover of some sort for 22 years, so I should have plenty to write about given the time. But for now I shall try to help out with technical answers and opinions where I can.

Oh I nearly forgot Soren, your winch project has been a joy to follow too.

[ejparrott]

I don't know if I'm honest....I write up for my other forum, why I don't just copy and paste I don't know... The 109 is not being worked on at present, and Kettle's thread sort of...finished...ish...when she went back on the road.

[simonr]

I have a feeling it might be the forum SVA police being on patrol! Everybody is keeping their heads down!

Si

[CwazyWabbit]

I don't know if that is so Si, most of what I have done to my 110 has been done a million times before with far better write ups than I could do gracing the various threads on here. Maybe it's because so much is already documented?

[dirtydiesel]

I have a feeling it might be the forum SVA police being on patrol! Everybody is keeping their heads down!

Si

I totally agree, Si.

I believe that the forum has suffocated itself,

It's pursuit of technical excellence has destroyed the atmosphere that previously nurtured innovation and invention.

[western]

maybe because it's winter & cold/wet outside & those with projects are staying warm & obtaining parts or info for the next stage.

[jbs]

I totally agree, Si.

I believe that the forum has suffocated itself,

It's pursuit of technical excellence has destroyed the atmosphere that previously nurtured innovation and invention.

How can we remove ourselves from the situation?

[CwazyWabbit]

Soren the OP said he has noticed the same thing on other forums.

If that is the case then surely it is not something this forum has done different to the other forums but either something we have done the same as the others, or something external to the forums entirely such as climate (both economic and meteorological).

[UdderlyOffroad]

SVA police or not, the legislative environment has changed dramatically in the UK recently. "Interesting" projects just arent as easy to execute (legally) as they used to be.

But what about rebuilds? You weren't impressed by Adam's expedition 110? Or Steve200TDI's 90? Or Les' meticulous 90 Auto? None of these are exactly unmodified - but they're all conceived to not require a 'Q' plate & be better than when they left Solihull.

[simonr]

There was supposed to be a smiley after my post above! The iPad spell checking police must have got it!

More seriously, I think there are two things at play. The main issue is just the economy - people just don't have as much money available for building what some might consider "toys".

Secondly, "off roading" has become politically incorrect. Time was when everybody was building their off roader, then they were building a challenge truck and these days, it seems to be the turn of building an Overland vehicle. Unfortunately, to build an overlanders, the last thing you want is radical suspension or geometry - you want something you can get spares for on safari in the Isle of Wight.

So, JasonG4110 insulating his 110 for his trip to Norway is the direct desendant of projects like Moglight.

Si

[Nigelw]

Funny I noticed this too, the seeming old faces of forums disappearing, projects have become overland specs and the doomsday preppers and such, but I also noted something else, where for as wonderful as it is to feel part of a small community within a forum, mostly of folk you don't know but you can swap ideas and have a bit of fun, but for nearly every problem likely to be encountered on any of the Solihul fold there is a thread at least and more likely half a dozen.

For most things I post to ask technical assistance I am almost 100% certain I could google search it and get the answer from 1 of a hundred search topics, and for a lot of newbies that are not happy to be a junior member and to find their way in a forum it is easier to just pick their way through the google returns and follow the advice given.

Yet I know for sure the economic climate will not have helped project builders as often used to be the case that a special vehicle could be sold on after being seen on the circuit a few times and yield a profit above the cost of the parts but that is not happening much either, where I have seen vehicles with thousands of pounds/euro's worth of equipment invested in them and being advertised complete for only half it's cost simply because people will not pay more for them than just above the bog standard vehicle.

Also I did note a few times how the newer legislation is strangling the amateur builders, I have been looking into the building of kit type cars here in Belgium and it really is not easy to get it on the road!!! I don't fully understand the documents I am having translated but the stuff so far almost makes it impossible to do anything other than run a standard vehicle, but I am told there are ways and this is what I am looking to exploit in a year or two's time, but for England you are having a lot of trouble from the builders of vehicles that blatantly need an SVA and yet all these years on they still don't and some folks are still building them with disregard but I only need take the thread from bishbosh for instance, a simple bobtail, achievable for a half tidy enthusiast in a weekend and they threw him in to an SVA and then he lost all hope after that,and this could be the type of thread that is putting people of building anything too special,just in case they can never drive it legally on the road!!!

Heavy reading but just how I see things......

[dirtydiesel]

Soren the OP said he has noticed the same thing on other forums.If that is the case then surely it is not something this forum has done different to the other forums but either something we have done the same as the others, or something external to the forums entirely such as climate (both economic and meteorological).

.

On the contrary, most of the other forums I frequent seem to have the same or maybe more interesting content than I had previously found, pirate seems to have a lot going on as does outer limits, even difflock and the Devon forum have some interesting threads in them.

The classifieds are a good example; generally something interesting (to me) like tyres or coilovers will only make it onto lr4x4 after they've been on Devon's for a week or so unsold.

There was supposed to be a smiley after my post above! The iPad spell checking police must have got it!

More seriously, I think there are two things at play. The main issue is just the economy - people just don't have as much money available for building what some might consider "toys".

Secondly, "off roading" has become politically incorrect. Time was when everybody was building their off roader, then they were building a challenge truck and these days, it seems to be the turn of building an Overland vehicle. Unfortunately, to build an overlanders, the last thing you want is radical suspension or geometry - you want something you can get spares for on safari in the Isle of Wight.

So, JasonG4110 insulating his 110 for his trip to Norway is the direct desendant of projects like Moglight.

Si

Whilst I agree that there is less money around generally, those that build and compete, are still building new cars. These builds either aren't being documented or they aren't posting them here.

To my mind many of the pioneering individuals that made this forum great just don't post anymore and as a result threads dissolve into drivel

As an example; if someone were to post up asking about full hydro steering above 90% of the replies would be concerned with its legality and the Iva. Ram selection, mounting solutions and Ackermann would be buried if they were even brought up at all.

Excellently Subtle expedition dig Si.

[Guest]

I think it can be split into two camps:

• Lack of spare cash for projects / people saving not spending.
• Scene changing from challenge/comp to more overland based projects (IoW or other places)
• Comp scene became very expensive
• Trayback's and other such mods are now off the table due to SVA's etc.

Place for a Forum:

• Lots of projects have been done a lot better than most of us can do.
• The internet is changing, social media is becoming prevalent where people would post a question on here now they will try FB etc first as this is normally to smaller group of friends.
• Last year there was a spate of "search first you muppet" responses to perficitaly reasonable questions which seemed to drive down the posting membership.
• I get a fair few PM's/emails/Facebook messages asking questions about my projects and will also tend to PM someone with a question.b
• When a question is asked people often jump in about the legality etc and don't answer the original question, many of these people don't even understand the question, however these often remain un-policed whilst in favor of policing other more trivial things.

Unfortunately the forum Admins refuse to acknowledge this and whilst many would like to see small changes to the forum the forum is stuck on it's "this is a technical forum" route/hard line. It is my belief that this place will end up becoming like a public library, with lots of good information that will become more irreverent as time passes.

The recent 'Facebook page' is a prime example of this there was a chance to try something different but instead of embracing an idea giving it a go and seeing where it went, and giving people what they wanted. They created a page and locked everyone out then changed it to a page with a out of focus/stretched image and did nothing with it. Because if we don't do things people will just carry on the same wont they!! Moving the pass the bucket eBay thread to FB would be an ideal place to stick it as the references will not be there in a couple of months.

I am not having a dig at the admins, and the argument has been done to death nothing is going to change because the people 'in charge' are not willing to even consider new ideas let alone give them a go and see where they go...

So we accept this pay our dues and plod on, why? Because there is still some good information on here, and not the massive amount of dribble and abuse associated with some forums. Some of us still post our projects on here. If you take a look at tools and fabrications Nigel's V8 build received over 54k views, (I have just noticed my trailer build is also up there with 53k views....) but places like D4x4 and even D2 become more relevant.

Another example of the above is a post I made myself I posted an idea about changing the for sale section taking an idea from the Norwegian LR forum, where they operate a bidding process on the for sale, due to the current rules most people are now pushed towards eBay or other forums to sell their gear. But where did it go?

Jason.

[nickwilliams]

In an ideal world, I'd post a thread about my 90 re-build, but time is limited and I'd rather be actually spanner wrangling than struggling with the forum software to upload pictures, which I find to be a tedious PITA.

Nick.

[elbekko]

I think one of the main reasons is this forum isn't very good at constructive criticism. If a build thread is posted here, you get two types of responses: "ooh, shiny" and "that'll never work" without any explanation why or suggestions on how to do it better.

I find the brutal honesty on Pirate quite refreshing, people aren't afraid to speak their mind and if there is some banter, you can just skip over it if you want. I'd rather post a project there and have it ripped to pieces while learning something than posting it here and learning nothing.;.

[Soren Frimodt]

Clearly I have touched upon a relevant subject! And judging from all the answers, it seems like a lot of things plays a role in this matter, and not just one issue. Keep it going, I believe we can all learn from this.

It seems like ever since HOFS put their spanners away, the inspiration and general "life" around customizing has died off this board. More a coincidence surely

[ejparrott]

I think its the time of year. I'm not doing very much at present, its cold and wet and I don't have a garage. My other forum is the same, no projects at present. There is one forum I occasionally visit which focuses on leaf sprung motors, the language is appauling, many references to gaybenders and disgays, completely uncalled for, and very little in the way of answering questions with problems with defenders and discoverys, when a lot of series also own these as they're daily drivers, so there is hope here yet!

Lets see what the spring brings, when the shows start again.

[Snagger]

I agree with most of the sentiments on here, though I don't see much negativity or hostility except in certain threads like the "pass the bucket", as already mentioned. One big factor that I think has been missed and may be the biggest is personal blogs. I have my own blog, and I have seen an increase in other, similar websites. They have the advantage to the vehicle owner of being under their control, so the discussion can be kept on topic, criticisms (not seen any yet, and I assume other blog runners don't get many either as followers are interested and enthusiastic about the project at hand) can be dealt with discretely, personal comments avoided and it minimises rambling discussion. Once you get a blog going, you tend not to duplicate it on a forum. I started my blog because I was always expecting to get booted off another forum where I just couldn't get on with the politics of the admins and most of the moderators, even though I got on fine with most of the members. I left that forum in the end because it was such an unpleasant atmosphere, but that had no effect on my rebuild posts as they were all separate. All the work I have done on my vehicles goes on the blog, and I just come on here to ask and to answer questions.

Cost is still a big issue, though. Just like the rest of life, disposable income has gone down while the prices have gone up, and that is especially true in the extreme off-road scene. Club magazines are discussing the nature of trialling and how it's stagnating - the old hands have old vehicles which have gradually been modified over years or decades, so new members simply can't be competitive and don't bother. I think the proliferation of heavily modified triallers and the rapid increase in the price of their specialised parts has killed off the new entry into the sport. That explains the shift towards expedition vehicles, which a re not competitive and where there is no right or wrong answer; it's all a matter of what works for the user. I don't think it's a matter of PC, though the shrinking number of play sites doesn't help. I also think that most Britons are becoming more open minded and less the "little islander", genuinely wanting to get out and explore foreign lands and combine it with their hobby. Of course, equipping an overlander is perceived as less exciting than modifying a trialler, so many of those builds aren't documented anyway. Personally, I'm more interested in those builds because it fits more closely with my use, and I suspect there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

[mmgemini]

My trailer has slowed because of the weather. I no longer like working outside in the cold and wet although I've managed to get a few small things done. You might get an up-date at the end of the week.

[Les Brock]

There does seem to be a distinct drift towards more expedition based trucks, Mine has been built for just about anything (although mine might not be project enough for some people )

The challenge thing seems to be on the wain esp for newcomers, as its simply too expensive to get a decent spec, and just to damaging TBTH

I'm glad I got to enjoy it when I did before it went like it has, driving to and from an event to have a great day with a great bunch and a laugh, it's far to serious now, the loss of 4X4 Adventures events is not going to help this either.

Keyboard Warrier's do frighten people off with builds so it makes people reluctant to post them, and the SVA police off course (Been there done that and "had" the truck to prove it )

[reb78]

I think folks join here for different reasons. I didnt join the forum for the build threads myself. Perhaps there are more folks like me at the moment that joined for the boring reason to simply keep their vehicle on the road and gradually (very gradually) improve it. Not so much fun to some, but its what attracts me to it all. I dont have time for big builds but like the challenge of running a 23/24 year old 110 as my main car knowing that it will will frequently be all over the country and do 500+ miles a week at times.

There may be lots of answers on a google search to common questions, but more often than not, i end up on here for the most concise ones anyway. I do think its a shame that people like Les Henson seemed to have stopped posting, but i guess there is a limit to how frequently someone wants to repeat their advice!

One thing i do worry about is that the D2 and freelander sections seem to lack the frequency of posting when compared to the defender section. Other forums might have a higher number of posts for these topics, but you really have to sift through the info to figure out what is actually related to the vehicle and what a poster has 'made up' because they wanted to chip in with an answer that may or may not be right! So...i still end up here for questions on those vehicles too.

As for the chat side of things....its not really why im on here (personally). I know a few folks on here and will socialise with them outside of the forum. Maybe the facebook page could be utilised for those that do want an online social side? Or setup another one 'lr4x4 members chatroom' so that the main page remains as it is (i have no idea how facebook works!)

[Mo Murphy]

I believe that the forum has suffocated itself,

It's pursuit of technical excellence has destroyed the atmosphere that previously nurtured innovation and invention.

I'm not putting the boot in but I couldn't have put it any better in my opinion.

I couldn't figure the Facebook thing, what was the point ? Does anyone know ?

Mo

[SteveG]

For LR4x4 the frequency of new topics and responses to those are definitely down, the amount of organised trips are definitely down, the amount of organised events are definitely down. It seems, however, that the people that mostly post here seem to be happy and the funding is in the green so it looks like it is going to stay that way for now

Just my personal opinion :)

[Nigelw]

I agree with most of the sentiments on here, though I don't see much negativity or hostility except in certain threads like the "pass the bucket", as already mentioned. One big factor that I think has been missed and may be the biggest is personal blogs. I have my own blog, and I have seen an increase in other, similar websites. They have the advantage to the vehicle owner of being under their control, so the discussion can be kept on topic, criticisms (not seen any yet, and I assume other blog runners don't get many either as followers are interested and enthusiastic about the project at hand) can be dealt with discretely, personal comments avoided and it minimises rambling discussion. Once you get a blog going, you tend not to duplicate it on a forum. I started my blog because I was always expecting to get booted off another forum where I just couldn't get on with the politics of the admins and most of the moderators, even though I got on fine with most of the members. I left that forum in the end because it was such an unpleasant atmosphere, but that had no effect on my rebuild posts as they were all separate. All the work I have done on my vehicles goes on the blog, and I just come on here to ask and to answer questions.

Cost is still a big issue, though. Just like the rest of life, disposable income has gone down while the prices have gone up, and that is especially true in the extreme off-road scene. Club magazines are discussing the nature of trialling and how it's stagnating - the old hands have old vehicles which have gradually been modified over years or decades, so new members simply can't be competitive and don't bother. I think the proliferation of heavily modified triallers and the rapid increase in the price of their specialised parts has killed off the new entry into the sport. I don't think it's a matter of PC, though the shrinking number of play sites doesn't help. Personally, I'm more interested in those builds because it fits more closely with my use, and I suspect there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

You touched right on the money there with those two points, I did a little looking around for blogs on vehicles and you are very correct there, and I think the blogging has become more popular for the reasons you mention, criticism with no structure for a solution, or just out and out dribble,(I have a rebuild thread on another forum that gets a lot more updates and TBH there have only ever been 3 other people who have made any comments in the whole 4 pages and 20+ postings of updates) The harsh criticism can be off putting but here it is not really the case from what I have seen so far, may be so on other forums but not here.

Also the shrinking numbers of P&P sites is having an effect too as is the even more rapid shrinking size of the legal by ways and green lanes that we love to trek over, that is really putting the numbers down as there is decline in both sectors which means fewer places to drive a truck so for some whats the point in building one?

I looked at competitive trialing and off road motor sports and yes cost is a big issue but only puts you off if you are looking to win every weekend outing IMHO!!! There needs to be more participation for a more novice driver who can't compete with the big guys with a truck that costs the same as a small apartment!! I did post this thinking on another forum when a similar topic of where is the new blood in trialing or what ever, but shot down for that so don't venture to that board anymore, but it is true, as I recall there was a woman Disco owner who asked why there are no women only events or at least incentives to get women into the sport, the most common answer was start something yourself!!! But no body actually thought "she might be on to something here"?

I suppose some attitudes must change but on the whole I personally find this forum is very good and as a source of technical information it is my first port of call and the search facility is my best friend when I need to find solutions.