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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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2 hours ago, Gazzar said:

And last as long as the warranty.

That's an improvement right there!!!

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4 hours ago, Arjan said:

To meet all sorts of standards, this model will be another computer on wheels and made not to be worked on by the owners..

Maybe it's time the owners caught up? Bring back night schools!

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It's not difficult, IF the software and hardware for the car systems is available.

But, unless they outsourced the manufacturing of the diagnostic box to China, this is usually difficult or impossible to get.

So the owner is fighting uphill to service their own kit.

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59 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

It's not difficult, IF the software and hardware for the car systems is available.

But, unless they outsourced the manufacturing of the diagnostic box to China, this is usually difficult or impossible to get.

So the owner is fighting uphill to service their own kit.

That right there.
If diagnostics was open source for the defender replacement it would alleviate most of the fears of the last 22 pages here and owners could actually modify certain non safety related systems, override others or at least diagnose and repair faults. Although one fear with an easy to repair vehicle like the defender is the proliferation of companies like Britpart and others selling substandard parts. If land rover sold parts at reasonable prices it would prevent this at a stroke. Why do some get a 60 or 70% discount depending on status and another owner pays full price? Why does land rover find it has to charge £575 to change the front pads and discs on an old Defender? I remember changing pads every month in a coal mine, I can only imagine the expense with a vehicle using traction control regularly. 
It's of particular relevance, as with the Toyota 70 series, many vehicles are sold to, and operate in regions with no dealer support whatsoever.

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" Maybe it's time the owners caught up? Bring back night schools! "

True...

However, this owner had a Volvo V70 for 300,000 miles and carried the Volvo car <-> Laptop interface in the car with me. The real one, not some chinese thing. Reason being that sitting at the side of the road, 1,900 miles from home in th rain, because a sensor generated a weird signal that caused the computer to stop the engine, is not my thing.

I don't mind computers - I mind not being in control of something I paid for, that talks to computers telling things I don't know about and the "mechanic" is not much more than a "parts swopper" doing what the computers tells him, even if we both know the computer is wrong..

But it is called progress I'm told and this new Defender will be something good.

 

Just not for me..

 

 

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Be fair - Land Rover have always been far more repairable and repair-friendly than other manufacturers. There's plenty of diagnostics out there for the more modern stuff, the D3 seems very well supported despite being hellishly complex, and the pace of people hacking about with these things and producing the diagnostics tools is faster than ever. There's OBD dongles on ebay for less than the price of a good spanner.

Even these scary ECU things are only a box of basic building blocks that follow a certain set of rules, just like the bits in an engine, and with a bit of understanding can be diagnosed and repaired or even hacked, reverse-engineered, or circumvented. I'd rather a bit of light soldering than strip and rebuild a gearbox under the shade tree.

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But surely the whole ethos in the civilised world now is manufacturers don't want blokes modifying their lovingly designed products and that servicing is restricted to their chosen dealerships.

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They could always add the diagnostics into the vehicle so it is integral. It would hurt dealers perhaps but what a comfort it would be to those who could use it. 

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This is confusing.  If this had been the Discovery 5 (instead of that odd thing that bears the name), it would have been pretty decent.  But it's going to have a Defender badge instead.  It's actually as much a Defender as a BMW Mini is a real Mini or a front-wheel-drive Beetle is a real Beetle.  Just take the name and put it on an entirely different vehicle - and hope the name generates some sales!  The new Mini and Beetle actually had appeal of their own, so weren't epic failures at all.  Hopefully, the so-called "Defender" will do okay.

At least the wheels look a bit bigger in the latest photos...

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12 hours ago, reb78 said:

According to the news, he's just had a baby....

I bet that stung... :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, deep said:

This is confusing.  If this had been the Discovery 5 (instead of that odd thing that bears the name), it would have been pretty decent.  But it's going to have a Defender badge instead.  It's actually as much a Defender as a BMW Mini is a real Mini or a front-wheel-drive Beetle is a real Beetle.  Just take the name and put it on an entirely different vehicle - and hope the name generates some sales!  The new Mini and Beetle actually had appeal of their own, so weren't epic failures at all.  Hopefully, the so-called "Defender" will do okay.

At least the wheels look a bit bigger in the latest photos...

I’ve said this all along.

Both BMW & VW took a concept and bettered it for the market ahead.

It looks like JLR will do the same

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Posted (edited)

Some have beeen saying "they should at least go open source on the computers".

Well, JLR did that in 2012, I remember the press release at the time and was surprised nobody else seemed to notice it, ot perhaps didn't understand. Now JLR are seen as one of the leaders in this part of the industry and participate in the working groups.

 

Linux has emerged as the basis for all the development. There are regular adverts for more JLR Linux software specialists all the time over the last decade. Google it and see for yourselves.

Here's one link I thought would be interesting :

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/gear/linux-makes-a-big-bet-on-cars-of-the-future-deals-with-jaguar-land-rover-toyota-and-nissan

Of course, the actual code used will always be proprietary, but the open source initiatives across the industry will, inevitably, lead to more and better third party tools. Yes, even some in blue boxes that might not work quite as well as they should.

Edited by Brian
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Now I haven't read all this post....but I've found this article from a reliable source (Automotive testing magazine!)

https://www.automotivetestingtechnologyinternational.com/news/rd/land-rover-defender-reaches-1-2-million-kilometer-test-milestone.html?utm_source=mailing&utm_medium=email

And No! there's no final design photos...these cars are mules in disguise!

Steve

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Sadly all the main dealers do is read the computer and change the parts that it flags up. They can't diagnose any fault that isn't that individual part so an ECU or wiring problem and they have no hope. We've had some absolute nightmares with vehicles at work which dealers couldn't fix and in the end I've had to pay back street garages to do. 

I think whats lacking today is the manual, when I got my RRC I downloaded the manual explaining how the EFI worked from here. Suddenly I knew what all the parts are for and could diagnose faults very well, mostly with just a multimeter. Now I appreciate the complexity has expanded and there are far more sensors and everything is integrated with everything, however if an aftermarket company could offer that sort of manual with the diagnostic tools to go with it I think it would be the stepping stone home enthusiasts need to get them from hammers to computers. Not everyone want to delve into learning the code it's too involved. 

With VW you can pay a tenner to access the online dealer workshop manuals for all vehicles for an hour or a couple of grand for a year. In that hour I downloaded the manuals for my Amarok, and 2x golfs and a tiguan for friends. OK you only get the live stuff whilst your logged in but I feel I got good value. A friend bought ta VW diagnostic kit and you can alter a fair amount, like enable the corner lighting that was a £70 optional extra and turn off the annoying double click locking :unsure:

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31 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

Sadly all the main dealers do is read the computer and change the parts that it flags up. They can't diagnose any fault that isn't that individual part so an ECU or wiring problem and they have no hope. We've had some absolute nightmares with vehicles at work which dealers couldn't fix and in the end I've had to pay back street garages to do.

I've had that exact experience 'recently' with the daily driver. Failed heated seat, first time it was a failed heater pad, then it kept turning off again, eventually after the last month-long garage visit a faulty ECU and loom connector were found. But it was just plug it in and hope it showed the fault each time until I had the fault and drove across there with it.

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Can't stop mechanics being lazy - that's as old as time. Bit like every problem with a 1.8 Freelander must be a head gasket rather than a £10 O-ring or thermostat, how many of those had unnecessary work? Likewise every P38 must have a slipped liner and need a new engine...

I'm sure the diagnostics info will come along, there's more pressure these days to put it out under EU regs about repairability at independent garages if memory serves. The cheap OBD tools don't take long to catch up either.

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I think the mechanics are only trained to do what the computer says, the dealer doesn't have enough high level mechanics to look at the faults and doesn't want to put them on it as they don't get enough out the warranty company to cover it. So they have this instant reaction of trying to deflect every problem instead of trying to fix it.

I couldn't even get vw to oil the sticking central locking on my pickup. The first excuse was it doesn't have remote central locking, the second was I was putting the key in the wrong way around (on remote central locking?!) And the third there was a wiring fault which they've fixed. It wasn't fixed so I had to spend 5 minutes finding a straw for a wd40 can and 2 minutes squirting it in the lock to fix it myself 🙄

  • Haha 1

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When I worked full time as a mechanic it horrified me to find that 3 yr old motors getting their first mot and non main stealer service 9 times out of 10 had never even had their rear wheels removed , bloody things were usually glued on ! I worked at “a back street garage “ or as we preferred to be called An independent garage . The younger mechanics couldn’t fix anything without diagnostics BUT that is all the college trains them in nowadays. Luckily I’m old school and grew up pulling tractors and stock cars apart although I did end up doing all the 4x4 work ☹️I did get freelander  clutches down to a fine art though !

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4 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

I think the mechanics are only trained to do what the computer says, the dealer doesn't have enough high level mechanics to look at the faults and doesn't want to put them on it as they don't get enough out the warranty company to cover it. So they have this instant reaction of trying to deflect every problem instead of trying to fix it.🙄

That's nowt to do with modern cars, that's modern business - and it works most of the time and makes them more money than the alternative.

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11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

That's nowt to do with modern cars, that's modern business - and it works most of the time and makes them more money than the alternative.

Exactly, and your paying £100ph for a glossy showroom and a video of the underside of your car. My VW has had it's first and last dealer service, 25,000 miles and nearly 2 years old and all they did was an engine oil change. Didn't even take the wheels off to look at anything. That means by their service schedule it'll get to 50,000 miles without having a wheel off unless the computer tells them the pads are worn etc. They do it to make the car cheaper on leases with no concern for its condition after it's sold a 3/4 years old. 

I use a back street, sorry, independent!, garage who are fantastic, they keep up with the tech and training and will put someone higher level on it if it's not just routine work, if you tell them it's still under warranty they use approved parts and provide the evidence etc but it's hard to know who to trust. I have a friend who apprenticed at another local independent and he was told just to wipe the top of spark plugs to make them look new, drill holes in the under tray to get at the sump plug to save having to take it off etc etc. I wouldn't expect that sort of shiftiness from a dealer so I guess you know your getting a certain level of confidence. 

Although that's gone off topic a bit from the defender, must be getting bored of waiting :lol:

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...so getting back on topic....

I read on another forum that individuals are now booking build slots for the yet to be revealed new model. Obviously it is not obligatory to purchase the vehicle built in these slots.

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Jeebus, it took them 50 years to iron the worst wrinkles out of the old one, I wouldn't buy one of the first batch :lol:

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Are you saying the last 20 years of defender production were without serious wrinkles?

Interesting.

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They did that with the Mercedes pickup, you could put down £1,000 to pre order a vehicle with no released photos or specifications. People did it hoping that demand would out strip supply and they would make a profit, sadly it didn't live up to the hype and hasn't done as well as they hoped. Although I've noticed a few recently so there must be some people willing to pay an extra £20k for a mercedes badge on their nissan :unsure:

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1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

Are you saying the last 20 years of defender production were without serious wrinkles?

Interesting.

Oh hell no, they introduced plenty of new ones :lol: also, very much joking! :SVAgoaway:

 

One thing I do find curious is the specific cutoff point that people imagine constitutes a "proper" Defender and whether there's a consensus among the grumblers - for example, the 200TDi era featured a popular engine but old-fashioned interior and body cappings that rusted, the TDCi had sought-after doors and seats but people don't seem to like the dashboard... why are people OK with the complexity of a TDi vs an N/A but not a TD5 or TDCi, coils are preferred to leafs but how very dare Land Rover fit independent suspension to the next version, power steering and disc brakes are OK but ETC isn't...

It feels a bit like there's a rose-tinted idea that Land Rover ruined something perfect when in fact it was never so, and that's why everyone here is always busily modifying, upgrading, and repairing their vehicles.

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