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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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13 hours ago, reb78 said:

It doesnt collapse in a heap because the brake switch throws a wobbly. The brake lights just stop working when you press the pedal.  

Exactly.  We all know the Defender had its faults, and construction quality was poor, but it didn't cost £45k and was relatively easy to fix in the field until they started putting electronics into it.  That's why the ROW Defenders stayed with the Tdi.  Yes, they couldn't pass EU emissions with those engines anymore, and so ECUs became essential for the common rail injection systems, but at least the rest of the vehicle lent itself to export and overland use and to work vehicle applications, and at least those taking one on a round the world tour could take a minimal amount of spares that pack small, like UJs, a wheel bearing kit and if feeling paranoid, the single ECU for the engine.  They didn't need entire hubs with bearings prefitted, or suspension arms with prefitted bushes, or compressors, crates of ECUs, multiple air bags...

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World Land Rover Day. It's the international day all traditional Land Rover owners looked at a picture of the new Defender and realised their next 'Land Rover' will be a Land Cruiser or a Jeep. 

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I saw a new cruiser on the road last weekend. It was certainly very retro. Very FJ. I liked it. White roof, non metallic. Very nice.

I didn't know they were in production to be honest.

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Jaguar Land Rover product engineering boss Nick Rogers said: “In addition to the extensive simulation and rig testing, we’ve driven new Defender 1.2million kilometres across all terrains and in extreme climates to ensure that it is the toughest and most capable Land Rover ever made.

Toughest ever made ?

 

I was talking to someone in the JlR supply chain this weekend and he was saying they can really see the effects of how JLR have narrowed their market, been hit by the Diesel thing, and suffered from much lower sales in China than forecast.... it seems to me that with the new Defender being a further nuance on those lifestyle vehicles, that it will only push them further into more of the same difficulty? 

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A small off roader like the Jimny would sell like hotcakes if they could keep the price south of £30K.

Stick a turbo petrol in it and 2WD when on the road, locked 4WD just like a series off road, be lovely. 

But they won't.

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4 hours ago, Daan said:

That's been on the cards for a few years now.  I guess that is to keep costs down but wonder how that will affect the price: unaffordable instead of really, really unaffordable?  For those who can afford that sort of thing (not just the up-front cost but the inevitable depreciation), at least the lines look tidy and practical, within the constraints of modern design requirements.  Thin little tyres are worrying though...

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Minimum wage there is €2.95 - though I can’t see that affecting the end price - just creating a bigger margin.

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They will sell it for whatever they can get away with.

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Well I always liked the look of the D3/4's I don't think its that bad - I always quite liked the look of the old Nissan Pathfinder, kinda looks a bit like that, big boxy square thing. I'm looking forward to seeing it in the flesh finally.

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I think Land Rovers current UK plant doesn't have much free space so if building new then the UK has more disadvantages than just the minimum wage. Pension, employers NI, sick pay, regulations around getting rid of workers for whatever reason, maternity / paternity, health and safety, environmental, sustainability, cost of transport, availability of both skilled and unskilled workers (you struggle to get CNC / robot programmers in the UK),  energy costs, location of materials etc etc all stack up and that's before you get any grants from local or european governments. Government, union and public backstop is always get the company to pay for it forgetting the company might have better options. 

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Cynic-Al has it - when we did the factory tour it was as much as they could do to find space to park all the Range Rovers for export, it was quite obvious that the Defender line was taking up a LOT of space that could be much better utilised by a more modern production line.

I very much doubt they took the decision to make it abroad lightly - they'd probably have taken a bit of pain to keep it in the UK if it was possible, even.

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The problem with a "small off-roader" like the Jimny is its towing-capacity's not that great. These days your 'serious' forester/farmer/rural sporting-estate-manager has stuff like a Deere Gator or Kawasaki Mule for hauling bales around and lugging feed to gamebird-sites, Ford Rangers for general duty, and something nice [Range-Rover/Merc/BMW] as daily-driver. My local forestry-guys got rid of their Defender 130HCPU when it came to the end of its lease and now have a Mitsubishi "Fuso" tipper-truck for log-lugging.

Landcruisers are OK: but they're only available in the UK with Diesel engines.

The Lexus LX:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_LX

is essentially the same car but with a nice free-revving 32V quad-camshaft petrol V8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_LX

which I've experienced in the Lexus saloon and is truly a gorgeous engine!

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1 hour ago, Tanuki said:

The problem with a "small off-roader" like the Jimny is its towing-capacity's not that great. These days your 'serious' forester/farmer/rural sporting-estate-manager has stuff like a Deere Gator or Kawasaki Mule for hauling bales around and lugging feed to gamebird-sites, Ford Rangers for general duty, and something nice [Range-Rover/Merc/BMW] as daily-driver. My local forestry-guys got rid of their Defender 130HCPU when it came to the end of its lease and now have a Mitsubishi "Fuso" tipper-truck for log-lugging.

I wasn't really suggesting it as a defender replacement, more as another line to sell, all their other stuff is huge, even Victoria Beckham's handbag.

 

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It handles itself around the Nurburgring a bit better than an old Defender:

 

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Looks like LR is doing some work on the side as a mobile chicane. 😛 

No doubt it's a lot better than the old Defender, but that's not really relevant, is it? It does show LR is putting a lot of effort in the car, so I can't imagine they'd neglect the offroad side.

Filip

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7 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

It handles itself around the Nurburgring a bit better than an old Defender:

 

I've always enjoyed punting an old Land Rover down a winding road but this (pretty cool) video confirms my worst fears.  That thing corners way too flat!  In truth, it's a road car, which gets extra ground clearance for off-road use by making the suspension stiffer and LESS supple - then fixes everything using electronics and brakes.  We all knew that was going to happen though.  As the argument on the previous pages shows...

Ah well, I'm not the target market anyway.  Too poor.

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9 hours ago, deep said:

extra ground clearance for off-road use by making the suspension stiffer and LESS supple - then fixes everything using electronics and brakes. 

One of the nice things about air suspension is you can design it with different stiffness for different ride heights. That's what Arnott does with the GenIII bags for the P38, by varying the diameter of the pedestal, those are stiff at low heights (highway) and supple at higher settings (offroad). The increased volume of an extended bag will also make it easier to compress.

Filip

 

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13 hours ago, deep said:

That thing corners way too flat!  In truth, it's a road car, which gets extra ground clearance for off-road use by making the suspension stiffer and LESS supple - then fixes everything using electronics and brakes.

Have you SEEN a D3 or L322 off-road? They have insane flexibility, enough to make coilers jealous.

Also, as others have said, people these days aren't using 4x4's for ploughing, farmers are buying 100k tractors and civilised pickups and using quads for plugging about through the fields. And, if the car park by our office is anything to go by, they're all driving D4's for going to meetings! :lol:

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10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Have you SEEN a D3 or L322 off-road? They have insane flexibility, enough to make coilers jealous.

Also, as others have said, people these days aren't using 4x4's for ploughing, farmers are buying 100k tractors and civilised pickups and using quads for plugging about through the fields. And, if the car park by our office is anything to go by, they're all driving D4's for going to meetings! :lol:

What I've seen of a D3 (etc.) off road is a sequence of tripods as the car rocks from wheel to wheel.  What did I miss?

Anyhow, all that aside, my observation is the 1970 onwards design (minus anti-roll/sway bars) gave each wheel the best chance of carrying it's weight, which achieved stellar off-road performance, albeit limited when traction become extremely asymmetrical or articulation requirements went past the (pretty decent) limit.  Later designs clearly don't do that but get further in many scenarios via traction control.  It would have been nice to see a definitive off-road equipped vehicle which took the best of both systems.  However, that vehicle wouldn't have made for that impressive Nurburgring footage, which makes me a little sad but I promise not to cry.

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14 hours ago, Escape said:

One of the nice things about air suspension is you can design it with different stiffness for different ride heights. That's what Arnott does with the GenIII bags for the P38, by varying the diameter of the pedestal, those are stiff at low heights (highway) and supple at higher settings (offroad). The increased volume of an extended bag will also make it easier to compress.

Filip

 

Interesting!  

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11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Have you SEEN a D3 or L322 off-road? They have insane flexibility, enough to make coilers jealous.

:hysterical:

This was our demonstrator which I took for a spin off road the first weekend we had it at the dealership. Crossaxled and completely unable to move forwards...

P7230216.JPG

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