Nice camper, but .......

[Badger110]

1 minute ago, ThreePointFive said:

 

But the point remains, if people want to role play as survivalists on campsites that have toilet blocks and a swimming pool, so be it.

 

At my age, a toilet block is well worth looking for 

[Anderzander]

At my ages it’s too far away.

The toilet block that is.

[ThreePointFive]

6 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

At my age, a toilet block is well worth looking for 

Same here, I love a morning constitutional I didn't have to dig a hole for.... and to be clear, I definitely don't class you or your car in with that lot. Yours is the definition of "for a purpose".

[Anderzander]

Just to be devils advocate - there are lots of people heading out in the types of vehicle that we are saying will be stolen or break … is that happening a lot ? 
 

I’m reminded of that Canadian family of 5 who shipped their series 1 to the UK and drove it to Singapore to recreate the 1950’s University Expedition.

I mean I can’t think of anyone making a worse choice of vehicle, for what they want, whilst going into some marginal places, with no personal security and having a great time?

[Badger110]

After spending years reading up on travelling in all manner or vehicles from bicycles to bus's, 99% of the time, it's all good.

You're just as likely to lose your vehicle or bits off it in this country as anywhere else.

 

 

[Snagger]

The worst thing is when folk do their overlanders up in quasi-military styles.  That is guaranteed to attract the wrong sort of attention, as well as looking very Waltish.  Most going outside of Europe, and even within it, in decommissioned military ambulances will repaint them for that very reason (and maybe to reflect a little sunlight to keep temperatures down).  A great example is that 110 in black Raptor liner with the heavy window grilles and oversized wheels and tyres that gets wheeled out at shows, or even the old MoD 110 rag top refurbished by Makher for a trip to North Africa, nicely repainted in NATO green. 🙄. Makher did a nice job of the rebuild, from what was visible in the magazines, but the rag top and paint are utterly inappropriate, even dangerous, for that environment.  It doesn’t have to be excessive wheelbase extensions, silly mechanical mods or overzealous accessories that define an ill conceived overlander. 

[Ed Poore]

The only saving grace with an older LR (I'm talking up to say the latest Puma) is that by and large they are still field repairable if you can source bits. I.e. they don't need a huge amount of special tools etc and they're pretty resilient to "bodge" jobs.

A classic example was I had two wheel bearings go on the way to Scotland (oversight on my part but the plastic caps hidden between the wheels I had at the time had split and got sand in). We ended up going to a garage in Kendal and he was able to source the wheel bearings and we sorted it out the following morning with basic tools. Had the same happened on the L322 it wouldn't have been quite as straight forward.

Similarly I've had an unnoticed oil leak from the transfer box which only after doing Yorkshire to Surrey did I notice it had run dry. Still drove quite happily with no oil in it and started making nasty noises but I suspect you could have limped that a good few thousand miles sympathetically. Even chucking in any old lubricant would have kept it going for many thousands of miles I suspect. By comparison I got some water into the transfer box on the Range Rover and that locked up the centre diff because its a wet clutch pack. Although not undriveable it was far less pleasant than the same situation on an older vehicle.

[deep]

Being a fairly linear thinking kind of bloke, I decide on my needs, allow my personal bigotry to rule out several options and buy what is appropriate for my needs.  Image is of no consequence whatsoever (and I can't afford it anyway).  Those needs, however, lead to very big compromises.  I am no fan whatsoever of spending the night where I am told to stay, where I have to pay someone and endure a mini-suburbia while I am there (though some of the campsites I stayed in while motorcycling around Britain were wonderful, it has to be said).  That means I need to be able to get a few hundred yards up a river, or along a beach, or up a track too rough for a normal camper van.  To allow that fraction of a percent of the day's mileage, I give up a huge amount of space and comfort.  More often than not, I don't even need that ability because there is a track or access that doesn't really need a Land Rover at all.  You could say that I make my choices based on a perceived need that is rarely expressed.

The well-healed who buy or build those over-the-top campers probably feel very much the same way but don't want to compromise on space or comfort.  I can't blame them for that at all.  Sadly, I think image often comes into it, and that's when silliness comes in and my respect goes out the window.  Yet I am aware that they demonstrate a bit of freedom of choice that is rapidly disappearing and that is the reason I want to see people keep making the monsters.

Having said that, our awareness of ecological values is so much higher these days that it has become hard to justify large forays off piste, so to speak.  Those big tanks don't really "tread lightly"...

[FridgeFreezer]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:17 PM, deep said:

Yes, you have made your point many times in this thread.  Because you are so committed to that point of view, I suppose you had better get rid of your modified Land Rover now and put a mattress in the back of a Sprinter?  Meanwhile, other people will get the vehicles they want, modify them the way they want them and use them to do whatever restrictive rules allow them to do, without being at all concerned about what you drive.

...so you missed my point totally then?

[simonr]

I think, for some people, building trucks like that is a displacement activity.  Most of them won't or more commonly can't go off driving around the world due to commitments & responsibilities.  Funneling their desire to actually go overlanding into a truck that could do it is better than getting depressed because you feel trapped by your life.

I love building stuff - and for me, the eventual 'purpose' of what I'm building is secondary, almost an excuse for all the time & money that goes in to it.  I'll probably try whatever the purpose was a couple of times, then move on to another project!  Anyone who tells me I'm wasting my time and I should just.....(put a mettress in the back of a sprinter, for example 🤣) better have thick skin!

From my point of view, I can appreciate the work that has gone into something as the whole of the thing.  Whatever the intended purpose was, barely matters so long as the builder / owner is happy.

[Badger110]

2 hours ago, simonr said:

I think, for some people, building trucks like that is a displacement activity.  Most of them won't or more commonly can't go off driving around the world due to commitments & responsibilities.  Funneling their desire to actually go overlanding into a truck that could do it is better than getting depressed because you feel trapped by your life.

I love building stuff - and for me, the eventual 'purpose' of what I'm building is secondary, almost an excuse for all the time & money that goes in to it.  I'll probably try whatever the purpose was a couple of times, then move on to another project!  Anyone who tells me I'm wasting my time and I should just.....(put a mettress in the back of a sprinter, for example 🤣) better have thick skin!

From my point of view, I can appreciate the work that has gone into something as the whole of the thing.  Whatever the intended purpose was, barely matters so long as the builder / owner is happy.

 

sums up a creative mind. 
 

i went through 4 changes in the truck to get it where it is…not because it needed it but because I constantly wanted to try different ideas 

The journey, not the destination, is the goal

[Anderzander]

I’d not come across the term ‘displacement activity’.

I would think my life is full of them ..

[Daan]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:04 PM, Bowie69 said:

Recently came across this bunch of nutters, driving Series one's around with all manner of engines in them, cross-europe:

 

 

I think I know what I would rather be driving  

 

Speaking of the wrong car for a trip, a series one landy V8 on SAT tyres is definitely not the one I would choose to drive 3600miles across Europe. I didn't see a single moment where 4wd was needed. To me that is a bit waste full. For sure there are some great green lanes in France and Italy, which would make the use of a land rover worthwhile.  It is the off road ability of a landy that made me buy one, so if that is not on the menu, it usually stays at home. Just my take on it.

Daan

[Snagger]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:03 AM, Ed Poore said:

The only saving grace with an older LR (I'm talking up to say the latest Puma) is that by and large they are still field repairable if you can source bits. I.e. they don't need a huge amount of special tools etc and they're pretty resilient to "bodge" jobs.

A classic example was I had two wheel bearings go on the way to Scotland (oversight on my part but the plastic caps hidden between the wheels I had at the time had split and got sand in). We ended up going to a garage in Kendal and he was able to source the wheel bearings and we sorted it out the following morning with basic tools. Had the same happened on the L322 it wouldn't have been quite as straight forward.

Similarly I've had an unnoticed oil leak from the transfer box which only after doing Yorkshire to Surrey did I notice it had run dry. Still drove quite happily with no oil in it and started making nasty noises but I suspect you could have limped that a good few thousand miles sympathetically. Even chucking in any old lubricant would have kept it going for many thousands of miles I suspect. By comparison I got some water into the transfer box on the Range Rover and that locked up the centre diff because its a wet clutch pack. Although not undriveable it was far less pleasant than the same situation on an older vehicle.

That is a very valid point for overlanders and remote works vehicles.  Dependability is more than plain reliability; it’s is a blend of reliability with reparability.  Toyota owners love to bang on about how much more reliable their cars are than Land Rovers, but they are not nearly as easily repaired in the field as a Defender or Series LR and are much less tolerant of bush repairs using incorrect parts or temporary bodges to get you to a site of proper repair.  Sadly, most modern LRs lack both reliability and reparability, so old Defenders will likely continue to be a popular choice.

[FridgeFreezer]

It's an interesting question though - old LR's are very repairable in this country because we are somewhat spoiled, much as an old Jeep would be a no-brainer most easily repaired thing if you were in the US... but outside that comfort zone and since the British empire is not what it once was, it doesn't necessarily hold true.

Trying to find parts for JLR stuff in Russia was very hard because out there it's only a step or two removed from a gold Rolls Royce in terms of cost to buy & hence rarity to the local fare, and I can only assume much of the rest of the world would be similar. They have a few JLR dealers but those guys are far more likely to have a part for Ed's L322 than for a model they have only ever seen in press releases touting the company's glorious heritage.

I don't know if it's really likely to be any harder to find a "close enough" wheel bearing for an L322 than it would be a Series 3 these days at the average foreign motor factors or bearing shop?

The argument about the overall complexity of the vehicle is a separate and tedious one that's not easily solved - very few people seem to be really playing with the newer stuff yet, I dare say as they come down in price we'll see people learn more & solve a lot of the problems if they are proven to be worth worrying about.

[reb78]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

It's an interesting question though - old LR's are very repairable in this country because we are somewhat spoiled, much as an old Jeep would be a no-brainer most easily repaired thing if you were in the US... but outside that comfort zone and since the British empire is not what it once was, it doesn't necessarily hold true.

Trying to find parts for JLR stuff in Russia was very hard because out there it's only a step or two removed from a gold Rolls Royce in terms of cost to buy & hence rarity to the local fare, and I can only assume much of the rest of the world would be similar. They have a few JLR dealers but those guys are far more likely to have a part for Ed's L322 than for a model they have only ever seen in press releases touting the company's glorious heritage.

I don't know if it's really likely to be any harder to find a "close enough" wheel bearing for an L322 than it would be a Series 3 these days at the average foreign motor factors or bearing shop?

The argument about the overall complexity of the vehicle is a separate and tedious one that's not easily solved - very few people seem to be really playing with the newer stuff yet, I dare say as they come down in price we'll see people learn more & solve a lot of the problems if they are proven to be worth worrying about.

I dunno. Often they dont need repairing and will soldier on (unlike new stuff). I had a rather loud clonk from under the 110 on the motorway in southern france. I didnt have any parts. It didnt seem to be driving adversely. I decided not to look. I pressed on and a few days later back in the UK spotted the rear ARB bracket had broken.

[Snagger]

You are right that LR parts aren’t stocked as well overseas compared to the UK, but being so well stocked here means that parts can be shipped to wherever you are fairly quickly.  A Discovery II owner had a rear coil retrofit kit shipped to a campsite in Italy after rupturing an air spring - it arrived in just a few days.  Try that with a Toyota - they can be out of stock for items as simple and routine as radiators for months, and look at the issues now with CPUs.  In remote spots of the world, it may take over a week, but you shouldn’t be stranded months waiting for parts with the  common old LRs.  101s or some SI parts, perhaps, but you’d probably find a temporary solution for most failures on those too.

[reb78]

17 minutes ago, Snagger said:

You are right that LR parts aren’t stocked as well overseas compared to the UK, but being so well stocked here means that parts can be shipped to wherever you are fairly quickly.  A Discovery II owner had a rear coil retrofit kit shipped to a campsite in Italy after rupturing an air spring - it arrived in just a few days.  Try that with a Toyota - they can be out of stock for items as simple and routine as radiators for months, and look at the issues now with CPUs.  In remote spots of the world, it may take over a week, but you shouldn’t be stranded months waiting for parts with the  common old LRs.  101s or some SI parts, perhaps, but you’d probably find a temporary solution for most failures on those too.

Wonder why they didnt do the easy thing and get a new airbag sent out. Very quick Job and all you need is a jack and some pliers!

[Badger110]

Just as a note regarding puma powered Landy’s.
A concern is regarding the engine elastictrickery as the rest of it has no real difference to previous models back to the 110/90.

However the engine ECU isn’t going to stop the engine working unless there’s a major issue, which means it shouldn’t be driven regardless.

some might say that a dodgy sensor can stop the engine but I found it hard to find anyone who genuinely has had a sensor stop a puma engine working and if so they are in the minority 

It’s a long way from a single wire to the fuel injector pump on my 200tdi but it’s not as bad as a CPU chip heavy newer vehicle.

The fly in the ointment is the Immobiliser unit. 

 I’ve had mine programmed to be switched off via a program should I need it to be, it’s quite a simple process.

 

[Happyoldgit]

One personally think of the biggest issues with the Puma models is sudden failure of the splines on the intermediate shaft in the adapter between gearbox and transfer box which causes sudden loss of drive. The issue is simply down to spline wear due to lack of lubrication of the joint on assembly. I owned several Puma's, all bought new, and while none suffered failure of the shaft I read enough tales of woe on Def2 etc to be aware of the issue. With the earliest Puma's now being fifteen years old and the youngest seven, the potential issue with the shaft is well enough known for the shaft to be removed and the joint lubricated  and / or mods carried out to allow lubrication of the shaft in situ. 

 

[Snagger]

14 hours ago, reb78 said:

Wonder why they didnt do the easy thing and get a new airbag sent out. Very quick Job and all you need is a jack and some pliers!

They were worried it’d happen again, and the trip leader said he’d seen seven or eight burst over the previous few years, but never saw a coil or leaf spring fail.  They decided to go for simplicity, even though it meant a bit more initial expense and a bit more work from all of us together at the campsite.

The owners of the other D2 spent the next fortnight fretting that the same would happen to them, but they were fine.  They said they planned to fit coils at some point once home.

[Snagger]

10 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

One personally think of the biggest issues with the Puma models is sudden failure of the splines on the intermediate shaft in the adapter between gearbox and transfer box which causes sudden loss of drive. The issue is simply down to spline wear due to lack of lubrication of the joint on assembly. I owned several Puma's, all bought new, and while none suffered failure of the shaft I read enough tales of woe on Def2 etc to be aware of the issue. With the earliest Puma's now being fifteen years old and the youngest seven, the potential issue with the shaft is well enough known for the shaft to be removed and the joint lubricated  and / or mods carried out to allow lubrication of the shaft in situ. 

 

It’s an unforgivable design flaw considering Land Rover’s experience with the LT77 and LT230.  I suspect it was deliberate to drum up repair work.

[Gazzar]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

It’s an unforgivable design flaw considering Land Rover’s experience with the LT77 and LT230.  I suspect it was deliberate to drum up repair work.

Agreed. Total disregard for their own experience. 

[Happyoldgit]

7 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

Agreed. Total disregard for their own experience. 

Yep, very shoddy and made worse by the denial that there was an issue despite all the component failures. My personal feeling is by that stage they had lost interest in the model other than a "heritage" marketing hook for the new stuff.

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

It’s an unforgivable design flaw considering Land Rover’s experience with the LT77 and LT230.  I suspect it was deliberate to drum up repair work.

An odd conclusion, I doubt any manufacturer WANTS to create extra warranty work / failures, surely more likely the Puma gearbox design team thought it was good enough without extra lubrication (maybe the old hands had all left by then?), and it's not as if they don't do millions of miles of testing on stuff like this. Marginal perhaps, but a lot of reasonably smart folks must've thought it was good enough to sign it off.