HVO Fuel

[Davidpaul]

HVO fuel, has anyone been using it in their older land rover ?

Edited February 12, 2020 by western
Title changed to be more relevant to subject

[Gazzar]

What's HVO? 

[western]

 

HVO = Hydro treated vegetable oil, more info in the link - - - - - 

https://www.beesleyfuels.co.uk/products/hvo-fuel/?utm_keyword=hvo fuel&SearchNetwork&matchtype=e&creative=379631610673&target=&placement=&device=m&adtype[adtype]adposition=&campaignid=6459856749&adgroupid=80282949514&gclid=CjwKCAiA4Y7yBRB8EiwADV1haemOdWzyXRMRuqdmtX4njfh0LSnDxmFPS2Lh8LmVmha4lF5QC3ylWBoCXWYQAvD_BwE

[Badger110]

I once drove my 200Tdi from Devon to Newcastle and back on used veg oil mixed with a little diesel

Got me there and back but did cause some issues later on

[Snagger]

The claims on the link that Ralph posted are utter rubbish - it says that emissions are reduced by 90%.  That is deliberately misleading and quite possibly a criminal act of false advertising.  Bio fuels tend to be less efficient than fossil fuel, so emissions are generally higher.  The mathematics used in claiming recovery of CO2 in growing the crop are also very selective - they ignore all the agricultural machinery and fuel processing energy expenditure.  Like so much of this climate related hysteria, there is a good deal of misleading and fraud going on.

Anyway, in response to the actual question, I haven’t used transestrified fuel like biodiesel or HVO.  I did try an SVO/diesel mix (25-75) in the summer on a 300Tdi and that damaged the injection pump.  I have also run SVO through heat exchangers in a 12J and 200Tdi.  The 12J was happy, but the Tdi’s bore glazing May have been caused by the SVO.  I found rape seed oil had similar performance to diesel, but sunflower and corn oil were markedly poorer.  I have not tried palm oil as it leads to severe coking and slugging of the head and the piston rings.

[Gazzar]

Ah, veg oil. 

Gotcha. Tempted to but the occasional litre in the TDI, but I prefer to use the good diesel instead. One breakdown would wipe the savings, for the miles I do.

 

[Snagger]

7 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

Ah, veg oil. 

Gotcha. Tempted to but the occasional litre in the TDI, but I prefer to use the good diesel instead. One breakdown would wipe the savings, for the miles I do.

 

Don’t, unless you fit the whole heat exchanger and multi tank system.  Like I said, even with that, I’m not sure it’s done mine any good.  Could also be the Slick50 I used shortly after running in, so I’m keeping an open mind, but without preheating the SVO, it damaged my other pump.

[reb78]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

Don’t, unless you fit the whole heat exchanger and multi tank system.  Like I said, even with that, I’m not sure it’s done mine any good.  Could also be the Slick50 I used shortly after running in, so I’m keeping an open mind, but without preheating the SVO, it damaged my other pump.

I think something else broke your engine Snagger. My 200tdi has run on SVO for about eight years now. I have a heat exchanger but its in a box as I have never got around to twin tanking the 110. In the summertime its run on 100% SVO and I tail that off to almost 100% diesel as the temps drop to below 10C (this is partly so I can use the eberspacher without breaking it though as the engine would be happy with 10% veg even in this weather). 

The one thing I dont do is leave high percentages of SVO in the tank if I am doing short journeys. So I will run at 100% and do 300miles then top up with some diesel for short journeys in the week then a full tank of SVO for the 300mile trip at the other end of the week. This is less important in the middle of a hot summer but very important as the weather cools to stop SVO sitting in the pump. 

I have done over 100k miles like this. So cant imagine a 25% SVO mix used once would do any damage at all. We had the head off of mine about 24 months ago due to a failed head gasket and the bores looked perfect. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by reb78

[Mo Murphy]

My 200 is made to run on diesel so I fuel it with diesel.

Mo

[Gazzar]

I like the idea, but I'm not doing high miles and it's mostly leisure and sorry commute driving, so best stick with the BP ultimate, it's the long term safe bet.

Though in 30 years time I might be on the veg oil! I've a spare pump I might send to diesel Bob so he can make it veg compatible.

Someday....

[geoffbeaumont]

I ran my old Discovery (300Tdi) on SVO for a while. In the summer it ran fine, though noticeably down on power (which was a worthwhile sacrifice for the considerable financial saving). There was a large - by the standards of what is still largely a cottage industry - SVO producer on a farm near where I worked so it was reasonably convenient. However, when winter came I was running too high a percentage of SVO and it partially solidified in the tank. I had to siphon the almost full tank, refill it with diesel and then replace fuel filters regularly for a few weeks until it was all out the system (I'd basically carry spare filters - when the engine started to chug, pull over and change the filter again). I had to buy jerry cans to siphon the SVO into as well. Even without any mechanical failures as a result, as Gazzar says that one incident wiped out all my savings from running on SVO up to that point.

I'd also say that the SVO industry is far less regulated and quality controlled than the petrochemical industry. The place I filled up was normally awash with SVO all over the farmyard (I kept wellies in the vehicle for when I filled up - shoes were not a good idea...), and I doubt their fuel was consistent quality, though I've no evidence for this.

The problems I had were almost certainly largely my own fault for running a high percentage of SVO too late in the year, rather than a bad batch of fuel, but I haven't used SVO since.

On the plus side the exhaust smells like a chip shop - which pretty much everyone finds more pleasant than the fumes from diesel 😄

[Simon Smith]

I've been running SVO diesel mix for donkeys years in my 200TDi, had a new head gasket last year at almost 150K and the bores were like new and the pistons were clean.

[reb78]

Yep. Same ^^^^

I buy SVO from the supermarket when it is on offer at 70ppl. I would have thought, as a foodstuff, it is pretty well regulated?? The stuff you were buying Geoff, doesnt sound like it had reached the end atage of processing??

[geoffbeaumont]

8 hours ago, reb78 said:

Yep. Same ^^^^

I buy SVO from the supermarket when it is on offer at 70ppl. I would have thought, as a foodstuff, it is pretty well regulated?? The stuff you were buying Geoff, doesnt sound like it had reached the end atage of processing??

It was biodiesel (produced, I presume, from used cooking oil).

Hmm... Which of course isn't SVO... Though it should in theory be better.

[Retroanaconda]

I’ve considered the world of veg oil in the past, I do a reasonable mileage and so the savings would be good as a proportion of the c. £5k p.a. fuel bill.

My conclusion has always been however that it’s not worth the hassle given the colder weather in this part of the world and the need to be thinking about percentages etc. all the time as above, rather than just chucking 40 litres of derv in a couple of times a week. 

[reb78]

25 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

It was biodiesel (produced, I presume, from used cooking oil).

Hmm... Which of course isn't SVO... Though it should in theory be better.

Ah. That does explain why the quality could be variable. I have never touched biodiesel made from WVO as the quality issues do concern me as there seems to be no standard way of processing or quality control. If the solid fats arent all removed it xould cause the issues you describe i beleive  but i am no expert  

My 200tdi performs really well on SVO - in the summer I genuinely cannot tell the difference between SVO and diesel. If anything I feel it runs better on rapeseed. Sunflower and diesel are comparable. MPG is unaffected. 

My FIP was reconditioned a couple of years back by DieselBob and he reported no ill effects from me using veg and I asked him to do whatever was necessary to make it as compatible with SVO as possible. 

[jeremy996]

I have run my 200Tdi on SVO using a two tank system for 8/9 years and 160,000+. I am not running it at the moment as the solenoid valve that switches over the flushing from the diesel pump has partially seized. I am currently looking for a replacement valve.

Until the valve failure, I have been very happy with it. My engine was reconditioned last year with an initial failure that might be tied to SVO, (the piston rings stuck in their grooves and the lubrication oil was blown out of the dipstick), but the state of the main bearing shells was such that it had to be redone anyway, (head cracked, valves, pistons, rings, over-bore, oil pump, full set of bearing shells and new injectors). The engine had probably done well over 200k.

I'm wondering what I would need to do to run it 100% on SVO; any suggestions?

(200Tdi heads suitable for rebuilding are becoming very scarce, I'd like one for the shelf).

[Belle Leonard]

My uncle used this HVO fuel for his three tractors, and it worked just fine. His costs are also reduced since he gets his HVO from a reliable supplier that offers HVO fuel at excellent and cost-efficient prices. It would be best if you did your research to see whether using HVO would negatively impact your tractor (though I highly doubt this).

[smallfry]

What happens if you get pulled for a roadside check by DVSA using this stuff ?

As they are concerned with revenue dodging, would you be in hot water ?

[Mossberg]

How do emissions compare between SVO and diesel? Is this going to be an alternative as they start to put more tax on diesel.

I have not heard of pumps tuned to suit SVO. It would be interesting to know if a pump could be fitted with a heater element, though I am probably showing my total lack of understanding of diesel injection pumps!!

I don't do enough miles to warrant an SVO system, but if it allowed me to use the truck when diesel would be way to expensive or difficult to get hold of in the future, then perhaps it's an option.

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Mossberg said:

How do emissions compare between SVO and diesel? Is this going to be an alternative as they start to put more tax on diesel.

I have not heard of pumps tuned to suit SVO. It would be interesting to know if a pump could be fitted with a heater element, though I am probably showing my total lack of understanding of diesel injection pumps!!

Good question regarding emissions based taxes.  As the engine is designed for diesel, and tax clauses are rarely retrospective, I doubt there will be a change, but it’s not impossible.

I don’t know about others, but for vegoil use Diesel Bob Tuning fit heavier duty internal parts, revised seals that won’t react or degrade from the vegoil like rubber, and slightly advance the timing of the pump in relation to the timing pin slot in the sprocket mounting flange.

[Daan]

On 11/8/2021 at 7:13 PM, smallfry said:

What happens if you get pulled for a roadside check by DVSA using this stuff ?

As they are concerned with revenue dodging, would you be in hot water ?

You are allowed to use 2500 litres, so the short answer is yes, you can legally use it, as shown in point 2.4:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-179e-biofuels-and-other-fuel-substitutes/excise-notice-179e-biofuels-and-other-fuel-substitutes

However, when I bought biodiesel for my peugeot, I had to pay duty on it. The way he explained it to me was that he could sell it duty free until he put it in the tank of a car.

There was no financial incentive to do it this way, but It is of interest, as both my hobby cars could run on it in, say 20 years time when fuel may be less easy to obtain, while also reducing your CO2 footprint.

Also, it is not recommended in common rail diesels unfortunately, but no experience myself.

I am not buying the statement that CO2 reduction is not real, as refining crude oil and then transporting around the globe is having the same result, if not worse.

There was also talk some time ago about red diesel being phased out, and bio diesel being the replacement for it as it can be sold without duty.

Daan

[max gray]

HVO is different from SVO 1st gen biofuel is different........The Question is about HVO

the current price quoted today for HVO is 85p ppl 28th Jan 2022 (inc tax from a fuel supplier delivered to our farm) so no tax avoidence worries.

Nb

I looked on this site for the same reason as Davidpaul. Has anyone had actual experience with using HVO in a 300tdi

thanks

Here is some info on HVO 🙂

Traditional biofuels and diesel products that belong to the FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) group have a bad reputation for causing performance issues in cold weather and fluctuating temperatures, which can require costly maintenance and infrastructure changes.

FAME fuels are produced by esterifying vegetable oils or animal fats with methanol. These esters are hygroscopic which means they attract water, which is bad news for biofuels as this provides the perfect breeding ground for diesel bug bacteria.  

But HVO removes these problems, providing superior performance from day one. That’s because HVO is not a biodiesel. It’s a 100% advanced renewable fuel that’s FAME and ester-free.

HVO is a true drop-in alternative to diesel which means no upfront investments or equipment modifications are needed to ensure compatibility, compared to electric and hydrogen which require a huge outlay in both money and time. It, therefore, offers the user the ability to fully pay down the carbon emission embedded within existing equipment whilst dramatically reducing its ongoing contribution to GHG emissions whilst in use.

 

 

From a renewability perspective, HVO is fully certified by the International Sustainability Carbon Certification (ISCC) and meets the international fuel standard EN15940. Therefore, due to the chemical structure of HVO as well as the technical backing of EN15940, it requires no capital expenditure on modifications whatsoever, allowing you to prolong the life of your current assets. This removes cost barriers and enables a seamless transition and a practical step towards decarbonisation.

HVO is produced through the hydrotreatment of vegetable oils; hydrogen is used as a catalyst instead of methanol which removes oxygen from the fuel, therefore avoiding diesel bug attack.

This production process converts the molecular structure into a paraffinic hydrocarbon which results in a fuel that has the same characteristics as fossil diesel but without the impurities that cause high levels of polluting emissions due to poor combustion performance.

Year-round performance – no need for seasonal stock replacements

 

HVO has a CFPP (Cold Filter Plugging Point) of -32^oC which is much lower than diesel so you needn’t worry about the fuel waxing or freezing in winter. This means it doesn’t have seasonal grades like diesel, so you won’t need to empty your fuel stocks of summer grade fuel ahead of the cold months.

Because HVO is FAME and ester-free, it doesn’t attract water and resists microbial contamination which means you can store it for up to 10 years, compared to just 1 year for FAME diesel products.  HVO is virtually a maintenance-free fuel and significantly reduces the costs needed to preserve its quality.

Safer fuel that reduces the risk of environmental damage

 

HVO has a higher flashpoint than diesel which makes it much safer in terms of handling and storage. It’s also biodegradable and insoluble in water, which means there’s a reduced risk of environmental damage in the event of a spill or leak which will reduce the associated clean-up costs.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by max gray

[hurbie]

what i heared from people using this fuel , they get 10% less range then "normal" diesel. but no more "black" smoke during driving

[Gazzar]

So, where can one get HVO?