Wytze Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 8 hours ago, Mossberg said: No, when I took the existing bolts out I realised I had got the wrong ones and went and got the correct replacements. I cleaned the thread by cutting slots in one of the existing bolts and used that. Great, just checking😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Well it seems I may have been a bit of a pr1ck. When I took the first caliper off it was a bit of a challenge and it took quite a bit of effort and keeping the fingers crossed. The heads were rounded before I went anywhere near them and it ended up with me cutting the caliper in half to get to the rear of the bolts so I could put copious amounts of plusgas on the thread. Even then I had to drill them to release some tension on the thread, lots of release agent and two sets of nut extractors and heat via mapp gas. I got them out and noted the coarse thread so I had to go and get a set to replace the fine thread I had got to replace them. So, when the other side came off with only the use of a good socket and braker bar, I was just happy to put that caliper to one side and carry on with the refurb. However with the discussion about thread types and diameter I decided to go and check the parts that came off. The right hand caliper (the one that was an ar*e to get off) was fitted with coarse bolts. The left caliper was fitted with fine M12x1.25, and I had refitted with M12x1.75 So perhaps its no wonder the thread stripped, though I think originally it would have been a coarse thread! So after considering the above, do I go for fine or coarse thread. One point - the fine threaded bolt comes with threadlock applied whilst the coarse thread is slightly longer but uses a spring washer which roughly equates to the additional length of the bolt. Lesson learned - don't assume!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wytze Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Go for D that is original.. Good writeup , very nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaghost Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Credit to you for telling us regards Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 50 minutes ago, Mossberg said: Well it seems I may have been a bit of a pr1ck. When I took the first caliper off it was a bit of a challenge and it took quite a bit of effort and keeping the fingers crossed. The heads were rounded before I went anywhere near them and it ended up with me cutting the caliper in half to get to the rear of the bolts so I could put copious amounts of plusgas on the thread. Even then I had to drill them to release some tension on the thread, lots of release agent and two sets of nut extractors and heat via mapp gas. I got them out and noted the coarse thread so I had to go and get a set to replace the fine thread I had got to replace them. So, when the other side came off with only the use of a good socket and braker bar, I was just happy to put that caliper to one side and carry on with the refurb. However with the discussion about thread types and diameter I decided to go and check the parts that came off. The right hand caliper (the one that was an ar*e to get off) was fitted with coarse bolts. The left caliper was fitted with fine M12x1.25, and I had refitted with M12x1.75 So perhaps its no wonder the thread stripped, though I think originally it would have been a coarse thread! So after considering the above, do I go for fine or coarse thread. One point - the fine threaded bolt comes with threadlock applied whilst the coarse thread is slightly longer but uses a spring washer which roughly equates to the additional length of the bolt. Lesson learned - don't assume!! My 1989 110CSW has the D bolts as in your diagram above which are coarse thread with spring washers under the bolt head. So I'm assuming your front axle assembly is from the same era. So I will say stick with the original type, no harm in applying some thread lock as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 If you or someone else has fitted the wrong thread type to the swivel housing, I would be very careful about just putting the correct original bolt back in. The threads could very well be damaged and not something that should be dismissed on one of the most critical components of a motor vehicle. As for spring washers they are pretty useless. If the spring washer is made flat before the torque rating is achieved then its doing bugger all. Definitely loctite in that location. But you may need a washer for correct length. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 22 minutes ago, uninformed said: If you or someone else has fitted the wrong thread type to the swivel housing, I would be very careful about just putting the correct original bolt back in. The threads could very well be damaged and not something that should be dismissed on one of the most critical components of a motor vehicle. Take it from me, you do NOT want a calliper falling off. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Hunter Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 hours ago, uninformed said: If you or someone else has fitted the wrong thread type to the swivel housing, I would be very careful about just putting the correct original bolt back in. The threads could very well be damaged and not something that should be dismissed on one of the most critical components of a motor vehicle. If you've damaged the male, bolt, thread you've probably damaged the female, caliper, thread. I don't know how you could check the continued serviceability of the fixings. Possibly by tightening the bolt into the caliper to its design torque value. Values are given in the attached. https://www.fastenermart.com/files/metric_tighten_torques.pdf Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Thanks folks. I can assure you that I have no intention of doing a shoddy fix on this. I need to be happy the caliper can be fitted to the correct torque. One point I note from the torque chart is the lower torque required to fit the caliper compared to the torque specified in the attached chart. My thoughts are that the bolt size/material used for this task has been chosen for its shear strength rather than its clamping ability, and you also have to consider the fact that the female thread is in the swivel pin housing and not using a nut of matched strength to the bolt. I don't have the specified number in front of me but I think it was 80nm/60ft lb torque. Thinking of the physics of what is going on with the caliper, the caliper clamps on the rotating disc forcing it to slow or stop. As the pads clamp from each side they should (in an ideal world) keep the caliper in a neutral state on the left/right axis. The real energy being exerted on the bolts is a shearing action as the caliper clamps to the disc rotating around the central axis of the axle. Thanks for your comments folks, I appreciate the time you give to help with your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Troll Hunter said: If you've damaged the male, bolt, thread you've probably damaged the female, caliper, thread. I don't know how you could check the continued serviceability of the fixings. Possibly by tightening the bolt into the caliper to its design torque value. Values are given in the attached. https://www.fastenermart.com/files/metric_tighten_torques.pdf Mike Another point I can see from the chart is that the fine threads have a higher torque value than the coarse threads - but the torque value in the workshop manual is under the torque in the fixings chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 They might be in shear, but the clamping action is what stops them from moving normally. Also note that fine pitch and coarse will very likely need different torque settings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigi_H Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) As far as I know, there is a metric version and an imperial version of threads. Can anyone tell me the size of them? edit: I just saw the pic. Isn't there an imperial version too? Edited February 25, 2022 by Sigi_H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 51 minutes ago, Sigi_H said: As far as I know, there is a metric version and an imperial version of threads. Can anyone tell me the size of them? edit: I just saw the pic. Isn't there an imperial version too? Not on 90/110/130. Early RRC had imperial bolts in things like rotor to hub, drive flange to hub, swivel ball to housing, caliper to swivel housing, but the changed to metric. I’m not exactly sure when, maybe before the 90/110 arrived but certainly not after. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uninformed Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Regardless of shear or clamping, if you can’t torque them to at least the WSM value because of damaged threads you risk backing out. If you damaged the threads on the bolt, you risk a stress riser forming and possibly snapping down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, uninformed said: Regardless of shear or clamping, if you can’t torque them to at least the WSM value because of damaged threads you risk backing out. If you damaged the threads on the bolt, you risk a stress riser forming and possibly snapping down the road. Believe me, if I can't do workshop manual torques then it ain't going back on! Also, any bolts that I think show any damage will be replaced. All the fixings I have used on this refurb have been new even though many of the ones that came out were in good order. This is my first venture into this kind of work and if I ain't happy with anything then it gets changed- in fact I have had to reign myself in as I keep wanting to replace with new, but I believe many parts are serviceable. This particular side has had new swivel kit, stub axle, discs and calipers, flex brake lines and all fixings. The hubs, cv, drive flange are existing. A kind gent on another forum has offered me a swivel pin housing so that too may well get changed. However I still think this thread is good to continue as lt may be helpful to future users. BTW, this started as changing a wheel bearing!! Edited February 25, 2022 by Mossberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paime Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 4:05 PM, Mossberg said: Hi Paime, how is your caliper repair holding up? I have just managed to strip mine when refitting the caliper, so I will have to do the same as you. My caliper bolts are imperial but I will use the metric ones on the repair as I don't think an insert will be available in the imperial size. Thanks for your. Mick Everything is holding up fine (touch wood!) so far and I've probably covered about 8,000 miles since i did the repair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 10 hours ago, Mossberg said: BTW, this started as changing a wheel bearing!! I can top that. I replaced the rear brake line on the 110 - the one that runs to the offside rear along the rear axle. When bleeding the brakes i stripped the thread on the bleed nipple on the offside rear wheel cylinder. When replacing the cylinder i poked some chassis rust near the shock mount. Long story short ... I am now replacing the chassis (very very slowly apparently!)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 6 hours ago, reb78 said: I can top that. I replaced the rear brake line on the 110 - the one that runs to the offside rear along the rear axle. When bleeding the brakes i stripped the thread on the bleed nipple on the offside rear wheel cylinder. When replacing the cylinder i poked some chassis rust near the shock mount. Long story short ... I am now replacing the chassis (very very slowly apparently!)! That does indeed top my problems, as at least I knew my swivels needed doing, just that I had planned to do them later. My truck is almost 30 years old. This is classic car territory. Last year I saw an older every day Ford that was a K reg. I looked and thought "wow, that's looking good for its age" snow then clicked that that is the same age as mine. But we don't treat our Land Rovers like polished showpieces. I am dreading finding that ever growing rus spot like you found and I just hope I can hold it off for a few years so it is not quite as much as an issue to my other half 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Just an update. I ended up speaking with a friend who works for a firm that buy x military defenders and sell them on. I explained about the stripped threads and initially he suggested timserts. I asked him who could do this for me as the kits are so expensive. He asked around and then came back to me letting me know that helicoils would be fine in this application. Those in the know said because of how these bolts hold the caliper and how the load is applied they don't need the timesert. I had already ordered a helicoil kit so I was happy that they would be suitable. I stripped off the hub and stub axle to allow access for drilling/tapping/fitting. I was hoping to get away with just removing the hub, but that would not allow me to use the tap wrench and I wanted to keep the tap square and thought using the tap wrench was best for this. I had not filled the swivels with one shot grease so it was not too messy to do. I looked online for videos of using helicoils with brakes calipers. I found a couple of American vids and they used red locktite when fitting them and I decided to do the same. I was worried that if I didn't then when fitting the bolts the could potentially try to wind through the helicoil. I tried a couple of practice runs with the helicoil and found that if any pressure was applied into the hole when fitting the helicoil, then the first couple of threads could jump a thread as that pressure is effectively stretching the "spring" of the helicoil. When I fitted it again I consciously made sure I did not put any forward pressure on the fitting tool and let the thread take the helicoil into the hole. As this was a through hole I could just keep on winding the helicoil straight through the hole to take them out. As I was now happy that I could set the helicoil correctly I applied the red locktite and fitted them. I left them for over 24 hours to let the locktite fully cure. I refitted the stub axle and hub assembly then moved to the caliper. I fitted it dreading that it would not work. My heart sank as the bolt just seemed to keep turning but that was just me worrying before the bolt was fully in. Both bolts torqued up as specified. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 You shouldn't need to put any threadlock on a helicoil, They're made in such a way that they are slightly stretched when installed. Which type of insertion tool came with it? Was it like the one at the bottom of this image? If it is, then then move the collar down to suit the length of the insert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 4 hours ago, landroversforever said: You shouldn't need to put any threadlock on a helicoil, They're made in such a way that they are slightly stretched when installed. Which type of insertion tool came with it? Was it like the one at the bottom of this image? If it is, then then move the collar down to suit the length of the insert. Yes the tool as the picture. To be honest I was probably being a bit over cautious with the threadlock but I was also thinking about when I take the bolts out as these have their own threadlock on. I did set the collar on the tool but initially I was putting pressure on the helicoil to go into the hole. As I could see the helicoil through the hole I could see I had forced it to skip a thread and I really didn't want it to bind on the bolt when I fitted it. I suppose the way I have done this is down to my inexperience with them. This was only the second time I had used them and with them being brakes I wanted to be happy I had them secure. I was also mindful that if they did start to run through when I used the bolt I could potentially not be using the full number of threads. I found the drill that came with the kit was very sharp and tried to snatch in the hole. I ended by gradually working my way up with existing drills that did not have quite as keen of a cutting edge as again I was mindful of braking the drill in the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 No worries, we all start somewhere! Must have fitted 1000+ over the years at work. With the collar on the tool moved down far enough it stops you skipping the threads. Working up the drill sizes is always a good plan, especially if you're not doing it in a mill or drill press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Certainly no loctite needed for coil inserts but glad you've got it sorted 👍 You've gained a valuable addition to your toolbox and skillset 🙂 Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossberg Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Guys, as you say, everything is building my experience and skills. I definitely need my torque wrench though, I just ain't got that right yet - especially with the smaller stuff. It's odd as nuts and bolts I can gauge when they feel right, but going into blind holes, especially aluminium, boy do I have to be careful! Still lots to learn and every task seems to highlight another issue. Yesterday's was brushing down the underneath ready to apply Lanoguard and managed to flip off the bump stop plate on the axle only to reveal a deep crusty spot, and I now think I need a replacement axle casing! Oh the joy of older vehicles. Now looking for an axle case if anyone has one!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Any photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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