Applying to COTAG - advised to sort out underbody protection.

[FridgeFreezer]

Well first off I don't know what they think you'll be encountering in the realm of 4x4 response that is going to need any of that stuff. I've got a 130 and it came with all the stuff you've listed bolted on, most of which I've since removed as it's mostly pointless.

Every bit of weight you add to your vehicle is compromising its performance, some folks view 4x4 ownership as a competition to see who can bolt the most junk to their vehicle. Do not fall for this.

Just to illustrate - our 130 Ambulance with camper conversion comes in about the same on a weighbridge as a Camel Trophy 110 with all the stuff they bolt to those.

So, on to stuff...

1. Skid plate - the transmission doesn't hang below the chassis on a 130, if you ground it you'll hear the chassis scrape along the ground before anything else so unless you're going rally-raiding you shouldn't need a skid plate. Also they are huge, heavy, get in the way for servicing / checks, and collect mud and things which then catch on fire on the exhaust.

2. Steering...

Our 130 came with that "tray" style steering guard and I've removed it because it was rubbing the steering bars thin on the back (and stock bars are skinny to start with) - plus you can't fit uprated steering bars with it, which are the better option. Also it fills with mud and weighs a load.

Steering bash plate thingies - again, fairly pointless (just fit stronger steering bars), mostly they are great at ploughing and getting you hung up on tree stumps from what I've seen at events.

3. Diff guards... meh, mostly I'm unconvinced that they ever do much unless your axle is already thin due to rust - but they're great at collecting mud, promoting rust, and hiding oil leaks. And, again, unless you're bashing round at speed over rocky ground or tree stumps whilst not looking where you're going you generally shouldn't be hitting anything, certainly not with enough force for it to matter.

Quote

Pros - Heavy duty 8mm galvanised steel brackets. 8mm 5083 industrial aluminium.

This is not a pro, it's a big dumb lump of extra weight and money out of your wallet.

4. Trailing arm slider... I've never seen anyone bother running those, I've never hooked up a trailing arm bracket on the 130 or anything else, and in the line of 4x4 response type stuff I can't conceive of a situation where these would be any sort of use. Also equipe is ££££.

5. Rear diff guard - see front diff guard, but even more pointless on a Salisbury where the main portion is a huge sturdy casting and the rear cover is a £20 replaceable piece of stamped metal. If you're worried, buy a new cover & weld some extra meat to it before fitting. Or, you know, don't reverse blindly into obstacles at speed...

6. Tree sliders - could be useful if you're planning on more serious off-roading and/or want something to stand on to reach the roof rack, but, again, unlikely in the line of 4x4 response activity. Personally I'd be getting some box section steel and welding some up as the bolt-on ones tend to pick up on things that aren't necessarily designed to take serious bashes.

7. Bumper - I hate ARB bull bars so much, they're huge, stick out insanely far, and unless you're too lazy to tuck a winch in properly I just don't get the point of them. Bull bars don't really stop much in the case of a serious impact - all you do is spread the damage across a wider area and transfer some of it from easily replaced panels to your harder to replace chassis. Also they're expensive and a big heavy weight hung right out front. Oh, they're good for getting small trees and branches hooked between the front of the car & the bars too.

Our ambulance does have a bull bar, but as it was fitted for the military contract we've kept it original, and added a military bumper with towing point.

Speaking of which... did the 4x4 response chappy not mention recovery points? Because that would be concern #1 above any of that other stuff.

Ours also came with a big heavy fuel tank guard which, if you look under the back of a 130, is utterly pointless as there's so much rear overhang behind it you'd have to somehow drop the truck vertically down onto a huge pointy thing to actually hit the tank. Weighed a ton, accumulated mud between the tank and the guard (=rusty tank + fuel leak), cost someone a pretty penny too.

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Well first off I don't know what they think you'll be encountering in the realm of 4x4 response that is going to need any of that stuff. I've got a 130 and it came with all the stuff you've listed bolted on, most of which I've since removed as it's mostly pointless.

Every bit of weight you add to your vehicle is compromising its performance, some folks view 4x4 ownership as a competition to see who can bolt the most junk to their vehicle. Do not fall for this.

Just to illustrate - our 130 Ambulance with camper conversion comes in about the same on a weighbridge as a Camel Trophy 110 with all the stuff they bolt to those.

So, on to stuff...

1. Skid plate - the transmission doesn't hang below the chassis on a 130, if you ground it you'll hear the chassis scrape along the ground before anything else so unless you're going rally-raiding you shouldn't need a skid plate. Also they are huge, heavy, get in the way for servicing / checks, and collect mud and things which then catch on fire on the exhaust.

2. Steering...

Our 130 came with that "tray" style steering guard and I've removed it because it was rubbing the steering bars thin on the back (and stock bars are skinny to start with) - plus you can't fit uprated steering bars with it, which are the better option. Also it fills with mud and weighs a load.

Steering bash plate thingies - again, fairly pointless (just fit stronger steering bars), mostly they are great at ploughing and getting you hung up on tree stumps from what I've seen at events.

3. Diff guards... meh, mostly I'm unconvinced that they ever do much unless your axle is already thin due to rust - but they're great at collecting mud, promoting rust, and hiding oil leaks. And, again, unless you're bashing round at speed over rocky ground or tree stumps whilst not looking where you're going you generally shouldn't be hitting anything, certainly not with enough force for it to matter.

This is not a pro, it's a big dumb lump of extra weight and money out of your wallet.

4. Trailing arm slider... I've never seen anyone bother running those, I've never hooked up a trailing arm bracket on the 130 or anything else, and in the line of 4x4 response type stuff I can't conceive of a situation where these would be any sort of use. Also equipe is ££££.

5. Rear diff guard - see front diff guard, but even more pointless on a Salisbury where the main portion is a huge sturdy casting and the rear cover is a £20 replaceable piece of stamped metal. If you're worried, buy a new cover & weld some extra meat to it before fitting. Or, you know, don't reverse blindly into obstacles at speed...

6. Tree sliders - could be useful if you're planning on more serious off-roading and/or want something to stand on to reach the roof rack, but, again, unlikely in the line of 4x4 response activity. Personally I'd be getting some box section steel and welding some up as the bolt-on ones tend to pick up on things that aren't necessarily designed to take serious bashes.

7. Bumper - I hate ARB bull bars so much, they're huge, stick out insanely far, and unless you're too lazy to tuck a winch in properly I just don't get the point of them. Bull bars don't really stop much in the case of a serious impact - all you do is spread the damage across a wider area and transfer some of it from easily replaced panels to your harder to replace chassis. Also they're expensive and a big heavy weight hung right out front. Oh, they're good for getting small trees and branches hooked between the front of the car & the bars too.

Our ambulance does have a bull bar, but as it was fitted for the military contract we've kept it original, and added a military bumper with towing point.

Speaking of which... did the 4x4 response chappy not mention recovery points? Because that would be concern #1 above any of that other stuff.

Ours also came with a big heavy fuel tank guard which, if you look under the back of a 130, is utterly pointless as there's so much rear overhang behind it you'd have to somehow drop the truck vertically down onto a huge pointy thing to actually hit the tank. Weighed a ton, accumulated mud between the tank and the guard (=rusty tank + fuel leak), cost someone a pretty penny too.

@FridgeFreezer .....and breathe.............relax.........

 

 

Agree with everything you said, 4x4 response is not play days, ccv, winch challenge or modified trials, it's actually for getting there to give assistance as quickly and as safely as possible, a 3.5 tonne truck is not going to get there as quick as a 2.5 tonne truck.

The longer an individual is waiting for whatever assistance means longer in a miserable or dire situation regards Stephen

 

[Peaklander]

4 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

4x4 response is not play days, ccv, winch challenge or modified trials, it's actually for getting there to give assistance

Agree - I'm going to join our local group once I have my vehicle back on the road. In tricky weather it's often used to take people to places that they otherwise can't get to, or deliver stuff for the same reason, not just for pulling and pushing.

[muddy]

Can only echo most of above, Disco drop arm, HD steering bars and a front diff guard, Clamp on will be fine just slather the diff pan with waxoyl. I also run the Gwyn Lewis track rod protector and I really like it, id buy another in a heartbeat. 

Have the above on my 90 used for very aggressive RTVs and never suffered any steering component failure. Ive torn the bottom of the chassis open multiple times, completely re shaped the trailing arm mounts also but never actually pulled anything off or felt the need for skid plates extra bash guards act.

As has also been said a properly waterproof snorkel and breather set up is important, crawling round underneath sniffing water/gearoil grey paste soon loses its appeal.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Stellaghost said:

Agree with everything you said, 4x4 response is not play days, ccv, winch challenge or modified trials, it's actually for getting there to give assistance as quickly and as safely as possible, a 3.5 tonne truck is not going to get there as quick as a 2.5 tonne truck.

The longer an individual is waiting for whatever assistance means longer in a miserable or dire situation regards Stephen

I'm in the local one and although they all mean well, it does also attract a certain sort of wannabe... the ones that love sticking millions of spotlights & flashing beacons & hazard tape all over their truck and carrying enough gear in the back to survive a zombie apocalypse... when the actual job is more likely to be ferrying nurses around in the snow, pottering through flooded lanes to help people, or pulling cars out of muddy fields at festivals.

I felt quite a prat turning up in the 109 TBH as it's so ridiculously overkill but then my other one is an ambulance and that sounds even more like I'm trying to play emergency services ... actually ended up during lockdown delivering PPE in the Jag because there was no point whatsoever in using any of the LR fleet to zip up & down the motorway.

[Mossberg]

Can I ask you experienced folk your opinion of rock/tree sliders. I am fabing some up for myself that will mainly be to protect the truck from people bashing the sides (and fitting a side step to). However I also thought they may be useful as side impact protection.  I have a 90 with the tank under the seat, but its diesel so not some movie explosion waiting to happen. I actually think a higher (as in higher up the door) level of side protection would be useful,  but then the Defender ain't exactly got Euro protection standard written all over it!!

Whilst I have no real experience of off-roading, I can understand what folks are staying regarding weight.  I can see weight being detrimental to most things - starting off, slowing down  (especially in an emergency), road holding, getting bogged down in softer ground etc, etc. Does having additional weight actually have any benefits?

I would have thought one of the main things to look at with how we are experiencing weather changes is good reliable wading kit. Also perhaps good lighting and warning lamps. The rest I would have thought was what you carry with you, and of course good comms kit.

As I said, I am no off roader, so I am watching this with interest. 

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Mossberg said:

Whilst I have no real experience of off-roading

In which case I would strongly suggest not buying ANYTHING until you've found yourself really wishing you had it - as long as you've got the bare minimum (decent recovery points front & rear, a good strong rope & a couple of rated shackles) there's not really any other kit that you can really say is essential.

Unless you're going pretty hard (or driving like an idiot) you shouldn't be bashing the truck into things anyway - the best off-roaders are the ones who are smooth and calm, who've read the ground ahead and bimble on through like it's nothing where others go crashing through making smoke & noise & bouncing off things like pinball.

Biggest single thing you can do is keep the truck serviced and up together, fit good quality parts, and watch & learn from others what to do & what not to do. Folks telling you to buy a ton of gear are either selling something or compensating for something.

Raised breathers on things are a cheap & easy one (loads of threads here - use Camozzi push-fit fittings & 6mm hose), a snorkel shouldn't be necessary for the average 4x4 response stuff and it will only encourage you to take risks.

What engine is your 130?

On the subject of rock sliders, a talented chap made mine from 6mm wall box section;

And substantial chassis mounts to back them up;

 

And the often missed lugs to locate a hi-lift jack underneath without it sliding away:

 

3 hours ago, Mossberg said:

Also perhaps good lighting and warning lamps.

Please don't fall into the usual thing of bolting a million watts of LED light bars to the front of the truck - for useful work like marshalling / recovery it's far more useful to have a spread of lighting around the back & sides so you can see what you're doing during recovery.

Defender headlights aren't great but I more often find myself wishing for uprated reversing lights on the 130 than anything else on the front.

[Mossberg]

6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Please don't fall into the usual thing of bolting a million watts of LED light bars to the front of the truck - for useful work like marshalling / recovery it's far more useful to have a spread of lighting around the back & sides so you can see what you're doing during recovery.

Defender headlights aren't great but I more often find myself wishing for uprated reversing lights on the 130 than anything else on the front.

I don't really intend to bolt anything to the truck unless I feel I need it. I am making the rock sliders myself and to be honest I am not thinking of going out and jumping into rock holes. I do like to tinker so I want to make a decent job of them - including provision for a high lift (though I would prefer to get some experience with more seasoned users before rushing into lifting the truck with it).

Regarding lighting,  I do want to change the headlights as I consider standard to be under powered (or whatever the term is for not enough light!). Another thing I would like to do is fit a decent reverse light - but this can wait until other jobs are out of the way.

One thing I have learnt through experience is never just buy the gear that a shop wants to sell you- take advice from those that use the kit and know what they are doing. Also, when listening to advice,  read between the lines as so many people will just tell you to fit the same kit they have.

[Mo Murphy]

Loads of amber beacons and light bars, these are de riguer for the aspiring responder along with rigger boots, camo trousers and a leather aussie bush hat.

Get these and you'll fit in just fine 👍

Mo

[miketomcat]

There are really only a few thing that will stop you driving home. Top of my list is steering bars and fuel tank, if you have a tow bar that's good enough for a rear tank. Side tank are generally ok unless you get really carried away. HD steering bars are worth the investment, but as fridge says a standard land rover (or other 4x4) will get far further than most people's talent. The single best thing you can do to improve a 4x4 is get some good quality driver training, whether you pay for this (get a recommendation) or find a local club and watch people, ask questions but above all go for that bloke that just seems to drive around with no fuss and just seems to get everywhere.

Mike

[missingsid]

Behind the fun but worryingly true comments re people stereotypes there are good facts here. Sometimes it is easy to get sucked into the 'LR cars are rubbish and need everything changing" view which is only true in the ultra rally class but perpetuated by the accessory parts sellers who not surprisingly want to sell the stuff!

When I started off reading and still now, the first thing I learnt is how much more capable a std LR is than ME!

The other truth as said above is that a good driver is always a boring one unless you like as I do, watching someone "clear" a section well.

[Stellaghost]

Wow,      COTAG......

I think you need to be more concerned about your abilities before your vehicle

Website states

Must be police vetted

Emergency 1st aid at work, minimum requirement

Advanced on road driving

Advanced off road driving

Licenced VHF radio operator

Vehicle recovery training

Winch operation training

Deep water vehicle wading and water safety

Severe weather driving and personal safety

Certificates required for all

I think the vehicle equipment is the easy part

Are all 4x4 response clubs like this ?........Regards Stephen

[simonr]

16 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'm in the local one and although they all mean well, it does also attract a certain sort of wannabe... the ones that love sticking millions of spotlights & flashing beacons & hazard tape all over their truck and carrying enough gear in the back to survive a zombie apocalypse...

You hit the nail on the head there!  When I was a member of my local one, there was a sort of driving test.  I turned up in my RRS on road tyres - where most turned up in monster, off road 'challenge truck' type things, complete with more lights than blackpool illuminations, winches & stuff.  I felt a bit out of place - but needless to say, the RRS drove the course quite happily.

In practice, all the callouts were to be a taxi service.  All on road, occasionally in the snow - but honestly I could have driven in the same conditions on a bicycle!  I think the 'clients' appreciated meing in a nice warm, comfortable vehicle rather than a challenge truck with no door tops.

I got bored of being a glorified taxi - and didn't continue with it!

I dare say, if you live in the Yorkshire Moors or Brecon Beacons, it might be a completely different experience - but in an urban wonderland, you're just a cheap taxi.

3 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Loads of amber beacons and light bars, these are de riguer for the aspiring responder along with rigger boots, camo trousers and a leather aussie bush hat.

I've got the hat!  Still didn't fit in though!

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Stellaghost said:

Are all 4x4 response clubs like this ?

Nope, Hampshire just check you've got an OK vehicle, some decent recovery gear and a Hi-Vis.

@Mossberg the #1 thing to remember with Hi-Lift jacks is that they are ALWAYS trying to kill you. If you keep that in mind you'll be OK. It's one piece of gear that is incredibly useful in a variety of situations but you pray never to actually have to resort to using it. Also, in a crash/roll it is a huge lump of heavy metal that will (all together now) try to kill you, so FFS secure it properly.

[Stellaghost]

26 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

 

@Mossberg the #1 thing to remember with Hi-Lift jacks is that they are ALWAYS trying to kill you. 

Have had 1st hand experience with that, lost control lowering and the handle smacked me on the top of my nose towards my right eye, open end of the handle is what caught me

Lesson to be learnt, take more care when it's freezing cold and all your gear is slippery or join me with two black eyes and a gash at the top of your nose

I have to say it bloody hurt regards Stephen

[Maverik]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Nope, Hampshire just check you've got an OK vehicle, some decent recovery gear and a Hi-Vis.

@Mossberg the #1 thing to remember with Hi-Lift jacks is that they are ALWAYS trying to kill you. If you keep that in mind you'll be OK. It's one piece of gear that is incredibly useful in a variety of situations but you pray never to actually have to resort to using it. Also, in a crash/roll it is a huge lump of heavy metal that will (all together now) try to kill you, so FFS secure it properly.

I confiscated the mountain rescue hi lift after I found the pins pretty sticky after lack of maintenance and some folk quite obviously didn't have the slightest clue on the dangers of its use. Great tool, but it needs respect!

[pat_pending]

11 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Loads of amber beacons and light bars, these are de riguer for the aspiring responder along with rigger boots, camo trousers and a leather aussie bush hat.

Get these and you'll fit in just fine 👍

Mo

You forgot the absolute must have... A HiVis jacket!

[Bowie69]

3 minutes ago, pat_pending said:

You forgot the absolute must have... A HiVis jacket!

Under your camo jacket of course.

[pat_pending]

I think you'd probably need one of these to get old Mrs Miggins to her hospital appointment after an inch or two of snow .

[jeremy996]

Simonr has the correct idea for 4x4 Response, the key phrase is "logistical support", so inclement weather taxi service and secondary skills as required. Kent 4x4 Response do much of the road marshalling for the ferries/tunnel queuing. 

In the wilds of Leicestershire or High Rutland, it can get a little "interesting", as it can in any rural or moorland area, the Highlands or other areas where gritting is rare to non-existent.

Most groups will train their responders up, (if they are willing), with First Aid, recovery techniques, highway management, water recovery or whatever else is useful for the area. For Leicestershire and Rutland 4x4 Response, we do First Aid qualifications for almost everyone and are upskilling for Highways, (road management for events, like fetes, Remembrance Day, cycle races etc), floods, (it can be wet here), and off road skills. Many of us are also Police Community Volunteers, so have undertaken additional vetting.

Every group will have a few mud monsters, but most have standard vehicles with not much more than orange lights added. We have members with Pinz'es, 101s, Jap pick ups, a Fiat Panda 4x4, an Audi TT quattro and the usual suspects.

(I am firmly of the belief that Hi-Lift Jacks are carnivorous, and once they have tasted human blood, actively seek it out)

[PolarBlair]

EDIT: not sure how, but I posted update below, then scrolled back up and saw all the replies which I somehow missed.

Loads of good advice and thank you all for taking the time to give it. This has been fantastically constructive.

So my plans have become a little less ambitious based on the advice given.

I imagine the actual off-road training is going to be a lot harder on the vehicle than any of the call-outs.

I was just focusing on protection but take it as a given that items such as a snorkel, wading kit and ECU waterproofing/ relocation are already on the list and in the works.

Regarding the engine, it's a 2.5 TD5 with a modest tune taking it to 157BHP and 360NM.

Still working on the overall plan. I'm going to stick with stock diff pans for now with the option to upgrade to the Gwyn Lewis weld on diff pan in the future.

Rear Diff

I picked up a Qt rear diff guard on eBay. My rear axle appears to have the required mounting points on the side. From what I understand, this also indicates that it's the weaker type?

 

Front Diff

Gwyn Lewis stainless steel drop arm conversion kit.

Galvanised track rod guard with the bolt on front diff guard. If I'm lucky use Qt, if not Terrafirma.

 

Bumper

I spotted one second hand on FB but it's needs the fairlead support flanges bending back into shape. Comes with a steel cable winch for £900 but has none of the accessories and is probably a gamble. Besides, I would rather go synthetic.

Got me thinking about other options.

Anyone have any experience with Armoured Engineering UK?

For the price this looks comparable to the ARB bull bar:

Edited February 21, 2022 by PolarBlair

[David Sparkes]

1 hour ago, PolarBlair said:

Rear Diff

I picked up a Qt rear diff guard on eBay. My rear axle appears to have the required mounting points on the side. From what I understand, this also indicates that it's the weaker type?

I can't comment on any of the other aspect you mention, but my recollection is that those mounting points were for attaching a mass vibration damper.

I don't recollect which models had mass vibration dampers from the factory, but I am sure that some people say they removed them and couldn't notice any difference, without realising what that might be saying about their personal 'sensitivity'.

Regards.

[PolarBlair]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:08 AM, Stellaghost said:

Wow,      COTAG......

I think you need to be more concerned about your abilities before your vehicle

Website states

Must be police vetted

Emergency 1st aid at work, minimum requirement

Advanced on road driving

Advanced off road driving

Licenced VHF radio operator

Vehicle recovery training

Winch operation training

Deep water vehicle wading and water safety

Severe weather driving and personal safety

Certificates required for all

I think the vehicle equipment is the easy part

Are all 4x4 response clubs like this ?........Regards Stephen

It does seem a bit intimidating, but I've spoken with the chairperson and you're not expected to have all that in place before applying.

You are expected to self finance the self aid at work (1day course) as well as the radio licence. Both of which were on my to do list before thinking about applying to COTAG anyway.

As far as background checks go, it's nothing I haven't already had to go through when initially applying to join the reserves, more recently with my shotgun licence, and to some extent with my work for the council where we need to be vetted to be able to work with vulnerable individuals.

The advanced off road training is encouraged, but of course not a requirement above and beyond the standard training as many will not have vehicles capable enough, but will still be more than able to ferry around district nurses and deliver PPE/ water etc.

To be fair, if you want to help out, you don't need any of the above. I could go out when it gets nasty and help stuck vehicles in the area by myself. Of course being a trained member of a group will likely reduce misshaps and ensures you are being used efficiently.

But I am interested in off roading and the more meaty elements too.

Full disclosure, wrenching on the truck has became my favourite pastime as soon as I set eyes on it. I don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone that I'm doing this for myself too. Everyone needs a hobby but if it can help others too then that's even better.

All that being said, of course I don't want to do anything pointless just for the sake of walting about in something that just looks nice. Would be a bit silly.

[FridgeFreezer]

Just my 2p's worth but that bumper is a big ugly pile of stuff and £750 feels like a pile of cash that could go a looong way on far more useful mods.

[ThreePointFive]

When I did the whole 4x4 response thing some years ago, I quickly realised the best vehicle for it would be an XC-70 on winter tyres. The only time I'd want something else would be for wading, in which case I'd be wondering why I'm wilingly entering flood water, let alone putting myself through the hours of maintenance that would come later.

I'm slightly at odds with some of the advice here in that I do like my (subtle) underbody protection, but even I draw the line at belly plates that hide more pressing issues than they might protect against. The only thing I would add is that a fuel tank guard on an pre-TD5 90 would be fairly essential...ask me how I know.