EV conversions

[Anderzander]

 shortly being a relative term ! 

[Mo Murphy]

I like Land Rovers not EVs. 😁👍

Mo

[elbekko]

2 hours ago, Anderzander said:

So….. 

 

EV conversions …. 
 

😂😂

Exactly. Threads like this are hopeless here, sadly.

[Bowie69]

I'll have one, small quadricycle type thing for very local stuff and rorty petrol for everything else. Problem solved.

 

 

 

[geoffbeaumont]

I've no objections to EV vehicles in principle - we could replace one of our two cars with an EV and it'd work very well for us. The other car needs to tow long distance, so while nearly all of it's regular use could be done by a small EV, if we did that we'd need a third ICE vehicle (which might end up making sense if fuel prices get much worse). The biggest blocker for use going electric is the cost of electric vehicles. Even a small second hand one would cost more than I've ever paid for a car.

[smallfry]

44 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

Don’t worry - the science shows we are close to peaking now and will collapse shortly. 

But the exodus from overseas is going to more than fill the gap.

[jeremy996]

I've been having a Morgan 4/4 restored that I have owned from 1991, (the car was built in 1972), and, as the existing Ford Crossflow was well worn out, looked seriously at an electric conversion.

There is a US made motor that produces an easy 120bhp, but that and the control box is £4.5k delivered to the UK, so long as the £ doesn't weaken compared to the US$.  https://zero-ev.co.uk/product/netgain-hyper-9-motor-sme-ac-x1-controller-kit/?v=79cba1185463 Leaf batteries are about £6k for 30Kw in the UK, with little scope for competition.

A Morgan is about the most basic old sports car you can buy, there is no brake servo, no power steering, no AC, only a rudimentary heater, so secondary systems are not really a problem. Getting an adapter plate from the motor to the Ford Serria 1.3 gearbox was around £1500 in design and machining, so you have spent £12,000 on big bits but no guarantee of anything working. Electric Classic Cars expect a basic conversion to be more than £30k, which given the cost of the major parts and the likely labour does not seem unreasonable.

I should get the car back at the end of the month with a total spend of about £8000, with almost half being the paint - massively less than a basic, (and experimental), EV conversion. 

[Anderzander]

That looks lovely. More pictures please!

I think you are right - cost is prohibitive at the eminent and range is poor.

The Lucid motors seem to fix the range - which is a step, leaving just the cost.

I think it’s coming . 

Perhaps not for our generation though. 

[Bowie69]

Re:electric classic cars, not sure I agree with electrifying a testarossa, but each to their own I guess..... 

But the bloke runs it annoys me intensely! My suspicions confirmed that he's a bit of a plonker when he started an argument with about the nicest calmest chap in the motoring journalism world (Harry Metcalfe) on Twitter, all because he questioned some of the maths around CO2 EVs. 

[FridgeFreezer]

This chap does some good videos diving into a few of the popular arguments / misconceptions I've seen on this thread:

 

He's got a few more too, covering pretty much every angle.

 

EV's are still going to be the future for the general population who don't care what's under the bonnet, and honestly for a lot of classics where the engine is not something outstanding it's an entirely valid option, although the economics are not there yet. As much as I like my V8s, I'd happily swap for a silent lightweight electric motor with 1 moving part, incredible torque and control, and super-simple plumbing.

Batteries are getting better + cheaper all the time, and there's so many billions being poured into R&D now that it's only going to speed up.

[David Sparkes]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

super-simple plumbing.

I'm guessing that, like a lot of other contributors to this thread, you don't have a lot of direct experience with even one EV.
If you had you would not come out with that 'super-simple plumbing' comment.

I did about 6 months research before making a buying decision, and I've been running one as my only roadworthy car since since April 2018.
As I always tend to do, I obtained a copy of the Workshop Manual; it is actually a manufacturers technical book for their American personnel.

Given the total balderdash presented in many 'assessments' in Forums and videos I have viewed I don't spend a lot of time reading every last one. I simply can't be bothered to invest the energy, so this posting is unusual.

I have no time for the suggestion that an existing vehicle can be sensibly converted into an EV, as the basic vehicle is too heavy, so the performance envelope is too small (speed v range). The cost of each conversion also makes any EV from a mainstream manufacturer seem cheap.

Regards.

[Daan]

1 hour ago, David Sparkes said:

 

I have no time for the suggestion that an existing vehicle can be sensibly converted into an EV, as the basic vehicle is too heavy, so the performance envelope is too small (speed v range). The cost of each conversion also makes any EV from a mainstream manufacturer seem cheap.

Regards.

I am afraid I have to agree; I am not getting the classic car conversion thing. First of, classic cars that are worth keeping do have a high value, and the ones that are worth a lot, are worth this because they are original; That's were the argument falls flat on its face. You spend a bucket load to convert to EV, and the value of the car becomes less? Than the argument of how much you use it. I used my landy between the last 2 MOTs about 400 miles. Hardly worth the bother I'd say, and that will be the case with most Classic cars.

Going forward, the EV will be the only thing we can buy from 2030, so there is no question it will become mainstream. I think there is an argument to replace our fuels for our existing cars with drop in fuels that reduce the real life CO2 considerably, Like bio diesel which was discussed recently, reducing our CO2 by 90%. Currently I don't think we have enough space to grow the crops to replace all the fuel used, but if the majority moves to electric, I'd say that is the way to go.

[cackshifter]

It just depends what you want. If you happen to live in a low emission zone and you want to be able to keep your classic and exercise it for a few hours at a weekend  without being a social outcast, and range isn't very important then it becomes a possibility to consider.  Cost isn't always the overriding factor. 

Any large reservoir of energy can be dangerous if released in an uncontrolled manner.  And if you think lithium batteries are dangerous try hydrogen. It's a very small molecule so it can literally get where water can't, it burns with a hot colourless flame and can burn or explode in a wide range of concentrations. It can be ignited by a spark so small it's invisible. NASA has published reams on it. You can even successfully run it in IC engines ( I have) as well as fuel cells, so the V8s can live on but would need conversions again. It needs special handling

[FridgeFreezer]

@David Sparkes I was referring to future conversions, I'm well aware (and believe I said) that as things currently stand it's neither practical nor cost-effective.

There's already factory crate EV motors in the states for conversions, and as it all gets cheaper, more familiar, and problems get solved I can see EV conversions becoming a pretty easy bolt-in for older ICE vehicles. We'll see integrated motor units that just need power & cooling and a connection to the throttle pedal.

Sure there's still wiring & plumbing but compared to the headache that is an ICE engine, EV is easy and only going to get easier.

[Gazzar]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

@David Sparkes I was referring to future conversions, I'm well aware (and believe I said) that as things currently stand it's neither practical nor cost-effective.

There's already factory crate EV motors in the states for conversions, and as it all gets cheaper, more familiar, and problems get solved I can see EV conversions becoming a pretty easy bolt-in for older ICE vehicles. We'll see integrated motor units that just need power & cooling and a connection to the throttle pedal.

Sure there's still wiring & plumbing but compared to the headache that is an ICE engine, EV is easy and only going to get easier.

I agree. 

The auto industry is brilliant at componentialising massively complex devices. A crate motor, a battery management control unit. A battery system with common coolant heating interconnectors and an inverter. That's all a non ECU classic needs.

And, as far as the eco damage conversation goes. We can make new electricity, and we can do this sustainably, but we can't make new crude oil. And Crude oil is too valuable as a chemical fed stock to waste on energy. Our food, pharmaceutical and chemical industries must come before the energy sector.

I'll drive my TDI until I can convert to electric as easily as I converted to the TDI.

[smallfry]

I dont get why you would want to convert a classic to electric in any case. Surely you have them because they are what they are, and have charm and character, mostly slow by todays standards (I have a Rover P5B V8 coupe but my old Astra diesel will out accelerate it easily) has rubbish brakes, have relatively dire fuel consumption, and quite involving (difficult) to drive.

Take away its engine and the very reasons you have it for are gone, its then just a dull characterless shadow of its former self, so whats the point ? Might just as well have a Nissan Leaf instead.

I also dont get the mindset of having to "prove" your old classic can out accelerate a BMW M3 or whatever.  

[Anderzander]

I think it’s a compromise on originality to increase usability.

[Anderzander]

 

[Gazzar]

12 hours ago, smallfry said:

I dont get why you would want to convert a classic to electric in any case. Surely you have them because they are what they are, and have charm and character, mostly slow by todays standards (I have a Rover P5B V8 coupe but my old Astra diesel will out accelerate it easily) has rubbish brakes, have relatively dire fuel consumption, and quite involving (difficult) to drive.

Take away its engine and the very reasons you have it for are gone, its then just a dull characterless shadow of its former self, so whats the point ? Might just as well have a Nissan Leaf instead.

I also dont get the mindset of having to "prove" your old classic can out accelerate a BMW M3 or whatever.  

That's a fair point, but not everyone drives a classic because it's a classic.

I've had my series for twenty five years, it's just the Landrover, used for hauling stuff, green laning, moving house, and going to the shops.  I put a TDI in it because petrol prices in the country we were living at the time were stopping me from using it, and I'll convert to electric/hydrogen/coal/ecopetrol when the time is right.

 

I like driving it, but it's just a vehicle, not a holy object that must be kept as the venerated designer intended.

 

l'll keep it on the road for as long as I can, partially as my personal understanding of the eco cost of a vehicle is that it causes as much damage to make a new one as it does to run an old one for 50,000 miles. But mainly as I think it's wasteful to scrap vehicles.

 

Maybe I'd feel different if it was a unique piece of exotic motoring history, but probably not. 

[smallfry]

37 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

That's a fair point, but not everyone drives a classic because it's a classic.

I've had my series for twenty five years, it's just the Landrover, used for hauling stuff, green laning, moving house, and going to the shops.  I put a TDI in it because petrol prices in the country we were living at the time were stopping me from using it, and I'll convert to electric/hydrogen/coal/ecopetrol when the time is right.

 

I like driving it, but it's just a vehicle, not a holy object that must be kept as the venerated designer intended.

 

l'll keep it on the road for as long as I can, partially as my personal understanding of the eco cost of a vehicle is that it causes as much damage to make a new one as it does to run an old one for 50,000 miles. But mainly as I think it's wasteful to scrap vehicles.

 

Maybe I'd feel different if it was a unique piece of exotic motoring history, but probably not. 

I was not actually thinking of Land Rovers actually. Radical modifications have been the norm since they were created. Its that type of vehicle.

I was thinking more along the lines of fifties, sixties, and seventies monocoque stuff. I dont think anyone with a pre war Austin Seven or Rolls Royce Phantom would even consider it !

I dont believe in total originality either, fine for a museum exhibit, but silly if you actually want to use it on the road. Improve what you have is fine (not to some) but an electric conversion is a major step too far IMO. Might as well build a kit car.

I also think its wasteful to scrap cars (and vans) thats why my garden is full of them. I get attached to them for all sorts of reasons, and I also hate the process of selling them, but thats another story !

[missingsid]

1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

l'll keep it on the road for as long as I can, partially as my personal understanding of the eco cost of a vehicle is that it causes as much damage to make a new one as it does to run an old one for 50,000 miles. But mainly as I think it's wasteful to scrap vehicles.

I've had mine longer so I don't want to lose it, eventually (maybe in my time line maybe not) it will not be usable in its present format, for that reason I would consider EV if practicable.

[jeremy996]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:59 PM, smallfry said:

I dont get why you would want to convert a classic to electric in any case. Surely you have them because they are what they are, and have charm and character, mostly slow by todays standards (I have a Rover P5B V8 coupe but my old Astra diesel will out accelerate it easily) has rubbish brakes, have relatively dire fuel consumption, and quite involving (difficult) to drive.

Take away its engine and the very reasons you have it for are gone, its then just a dull characterless shadow of its former self, so whats the point ? Might just as well have a Nissan Leaf instead.

I can see where you are coming from but I feel this really needs to be on a case by case basis.

The Morgan, you can see how I opted above; the main drivers were the excessive cost and that I could get a useable, reliable and characterful car back on the road for £8000. I have history of buying a car, running it hard then rebuilding it and then destroying it again by excessive use; this is Morgan rebuild number 3 in my hands, the first being rust and chassis fatigue, the second racing accident and this one, 100k+ miles with an engine that does not have a good reputation for longevity, especially when tuned up.

The Maxda MX5 California was fixed to work with wings, sills and front chassis rails; it has done under 100k, the engine, gearbox and interior are OK to good. When it fails mechanically, we will have another hard look at an EV conversion as you can buy an off the shelf DIY kit that is about £15k at last viewing and coming down. My wife loves the car but is no petrolhead and as an EV, would probably use it as a commuter car. Much as I love the car, the engine is not its most charismatic element. There are millions of MX5s out there, although not many NB Californians, so I don't see any loss of heritage.

The LRs, I'm happy to run on SVO/WVO, so electrification would be a strange miss-step. The 110 will probably be sold for the Grenadier, but we'll see.

The last episode of Vintage Voltage shown on TV was a faux BMW CSL with a seized engine. A real CSL would be a real loss, but also intrinsically valuable in any condition. I had no strong feelings and felt the owner was addressing their automotive fantasy. As for the Ferrari Testarossa, there are enough that are mint that one converted as an EV is no great loss. As a bit of street theatre a Testarossa is great, as a driving machine, not so much; there were a lot made and they were not made very well. Ferrari owners seem to collect toys and horde them; a high mileage Ferrari is worth comparatively little, so very few get used and most barely see the light of day. An EV one might come out more often!

[miketomcat]

I'm working on the theory that once Munro have sorted their EV ibex, either Munro or foers are likely to offer a retro fit kit to fit mine. This will likely fit the 110 too. However this will only be when I have no choice as whilst I don't want to get rid of either viability will play a major role.

Mike

[Gazzar]

Exactly. If it works, it's fine. 

[deep]

My interest got sparked by an English video by a company who convert 90s and 110s to electric using Tesla components.  While the idea of putting 450hp into a Land Rover seems to introduce more problems than solutions, I did wonder how a lower-powered conversion (like mooted above with the Morgan) would be in my Series 3?  Here in New Zealand, non-electric vehicles attract expensive road tax and electric ones don't (a case of the poor subsidising the rich, I reckon) and the per-mile energy cost would be far lower anyway.  With attention to water-proofing and transmission, it could make for a great off-roader and the idea of having fewer oil leaks and less regular maintenance also appeals.  I love driving Series Land Rovers.  The thought of using one as an every day commuter brings back happy memories of when I did just that.  It isn't realistic to do that now, for a number of reasons, but at least I still have one in the shed.

Then I thought, if I could afford to convert my Series 3 to electric, I could easily afford to put petrol in the thing for decades!  Electricity production is also very dirty and I don't think my environmental conscience would handle the hypocrisy (you need to understand where the power comes from and that it is the "extra" production effectively fuelling electric cars).  Plus, the range limitations would just mean I'd have to keep my main car anyway.  So, yes, there is appeal and some practical aspects to doing a conversion but it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future (unless I can tap into the $10,000 "clean car" grant to pay for it, hmm).

I think there is a future for electric cars, beyond the hype and legislation forcing them on us way before they are ready to "replace" traditional transport.  Home generation and better utilisation and storage of hydrogen might help.  Moving from performance to economy in design will help.  Capacitor charging might help.  The main thing, however, that people are soooooooooo slow to understand, is that electric cars will NOT solve any of the world's environmental problems.  People keep breeding, people aren't allowed to die, people will never voluntary stop indulging to the max and people, ultimately, don't want to know what all that really costs.  So, like I always say, get your battery car and enjoy it but don't kid yourself that makes you "zero emission"!  Not even close.