Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Maverik]

Anyone else notice the ZF power steering reservoir being the same as a standard Defender, that must be done on purpose!

[missingsid]

1 hour ago, Maverik said:

Anyone else notice the ZF power steering reservoir being the same as a standard Defender, that must be done on purpose!

Probably not, surely the same part as it is the correct one for the purpose it does.

[jeremy996]

4 hours ago, Maverik said:

Anyone else notice the ZF power steering reservoir being the same as a standard Defender, that must be done on purpose!

Just the usual coincidence of procurement rather than trolling!

(Why have a custom bit commissioned when something off the shelf will do)

If you own something semi-exotic, then knowing where the bit came from can save your a fortune: there's a few Aston Martin DB7 to DB11 bits plundered from the Ford and Jaguar parts bins.

My '72 Morgan is a bitsa; Morris 8 rear brake backplates, Ford Granada Mk1 front brake callipers, Salisbury axle usually found under a Commer van, indicator stalk from a Ford Transit Mk1, steering column from a MGB, instruments plundered from the Smiths catalogue etc.  

 

[elbekko]

 

[jeremy996]

There has been a flurry of YouTube videos released today/yesterday. The one above, Carfection posted by elbekko appealed to me as it was driving in coal spoil goop - fairly familiar to me!

One from Australia - probably the most negative I've seen but he is a dedicated overlander/rock hopper and wants big tyres and huge fuel tanks.

 

One from Autocar: - the same terrain as Carfection.

 

[jeremy996]

And a video from Carwow:- again at the quarry complex on coal spoil.

I enjoyed his climb failure and the view of the interior of the early build  Pre-Production prototype. He suggest the SW will be around £53k. 

 

[jeremy996]

There is a written review at the same press event on Pistonheads, https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-driven/ineos-grenadier-prototype-ph-review/45351

All of the usual PH responses, from bigot to fanboy.

[jeremy996]

And a review from Top Gear - nothing too surprising, but some useful quotes from the designer and CEO

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/grenadier/first-drive

 

[jeremy996]

Land Rover Monthly, April 2022 No.293 £5.25, or free if you read it in the aisle has articles and a bit of sniping about the Grenadier.

Page 10, Letters has the editor explaining they are not Grenadier Monthly, so they have a Writer's Rovers bit by Gary Pusey, introduced on page 21, his column, in the penultimate paragraph.

Pages 82-84 Writer's Rovers, page 84 is appended below, (other pictures are too big for the forum). I was hoping for some insight, however you should be able to read the concluding paragraphs yourself. I think he likes it, but is worried about being struck by lightening or being chased by Land Rover Owners bearing flaming torches.

IMG_2982.pdf

[jeremy996]

An article in the business section of Autocar and on the website, https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-dealership%2C-sales-and-marketing/why-van-versions-ineos-grenadier-help-co2-rules

Why van versions of the Ineos Grenadier help with CO2 rules

By offering a commercial variant from the off, Ineos has boxed clever with EU and UK emissions regs

Launching a car company without an electric vehicle these days is nigh on impossible, given the tight rules surrounding average CO2 emissions in the UK and European Union, but that’s exactly what Ineos Automotive hopes to do when it begins deliveries of the Grenadier off-roader in July/August. But how?

The answer: study the rules extremely carefully and exploit the grey area between cars and commercial vehicles.

The Grenadier had a controversial birth when Ineos CEO Sir Jim Ratcliffe tried to buy the original Land Rover Defender tooling to allow him to carry on building a model that Land Rover dropped in 2016.
When Land Rover rebuffed him, the Grenadier was born as a sort of tribute act to replicate the Defender’s rugged simplicity but with the flaws ironed out. Land Rover argued the design breached its copyright, but Ineos prevailed.

Ineos has yet to reveal the exact CO2 figures for the Grenadier, but with power coming from a BMW straight-six engine, either petrol or diesel, the number is going to be high, especially given the car’s blocky shape.

Both the EU and the UK, which carried over EU rules, require an average CO2 figure of 95g/km of all cars sold, with a few grams leeway given to brands with heavier vehicles.

Mainstream car makers bring that average down by selling electric cars or plug-in hybrids, or pooling with those makers that do, but Ineos has said a proposed hydrogen fuel cell car won’t be launched until 2027 at the earliest.

There are, however, special dispensations offered to low-volume manufacturers and even more if those manufacturers are making vans. This is where Ineos boxed clever.

The Grenadier is initially available as a five-seat car, but also as two commercial variants: one a two-seater, the other a five-seater.

A longer double-cab pick-up is also on the way next year (with a wheelbase length of 127in, close to the 130in that gave the old Defender 130 double-cab pick-up its name).

The EU says low-volume manufacturers can sell up to 10,000 cars in a given year, as well as 22,000 vans.

The company still has to keep targets to reduce CO2 levels over a period of time, but those are bespoke and agreed with the EU. (Ineos hasn’t revealed what its targets are.)

Meanwhile, the UK has similar rules to reduce numbers, and Ineos is allowed to sell 6000 vehicles, of which 1700 can be cars and 4300 ‘N1’ classification commercials.

These aren’t big numbers but they're big enough for Ineos, whose factory in Hambach, north-east France (bought from Daimler) has a capacity of 33,000 annually, rising to 50,000 building around the clock on three shifts.

The van classification works to the advantage of both Ineos and customers, many of whom will be self-employed business people looking for a vehicle to span the twin ‘tool and toy’ functions. “It fulfils both ends of that spectrum,” Donna Falconer, head of product at Ineos Automotive, said.

Currently, the double-cab pick-up captures a lot of that market and is tax efficient for the self-employed, who can reclaim the VAT. The loophole in the UK means the country is now by far the largest market for pick-ups in Europe, led by the Ford Ranger.

Ineos has gone one step further and offered a vehicle that keeps its N1 classification, has five seats and keeps the rear windows, meaning it outwardly looks like the car. (You can delete the rearmost side windows for security.)

This won’t be the first vehicle to do that. Suzuki recently stopped selling its Jimny off-roader and replaced it with a two-seat van version to have less impact on its CO2 figures.

Van versions of cars are prevalent on the Continent as car makers look to exploit loopholes in specific markets. But this is possibly the first car that has been designed specifically with the van rules in mind.

[landroversforever]

That’s clever! I do enjoy a good loophole story!

Sad that I recognise the 130/127 wheelbase bit was wrong  

[deep]

33 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

That’s clever! I do enjoy a good loophole story!

Sad that I recognise the 130/127 wheelbase bit was wrong  

Just what I was thinking!  I guess it's never been common knowledge (outside Land Rover circles) that the 130 had a 127" wheelbase?

Anyway, given a change in my financial status I'd be getting a two seater, regardless of laws and loopholes.  I have no use at all for back seats, though a middle front one would be nice.  I do wonder how they measure the carbon output of coal-burning, forest-destroying electric cars too.  Lots of smoke and mirrors in that industry...

Edited March 2, 2022 by deep

[jeremy996]

Building The Grenadier Episode 11, Welcome to Hambach!

 

[Snagger]

I don’t like the grille or rear lights much and really dislike the brown steering wheel option, but I do like the rest and the more I see it, the more I like it.  Shame they aren’t to be UK built, but I can see why that plant was to good to pass up.

[Happyoldgit]

I do like the simple, chunky controls but not sure about the steering wheel either. In terms of external aesthetics the more I see it the more I see a Defender / Santana lookalike. I'm beginning to wonder if they missed the chance to produce something that looks less copy, more unique with more an eye to the future as opposed to the past of another company.  

[missingsid]

Regardless of the quality and engineering they have bestowed on it, sorry I just see Chinese knock off.

It really disappoints me that they have done that, they have the chance to be the UKs best sector product maybe even more, time will tell.

[Snagger]

I can see the point you both make, but this is intended to be a real Defender replacement, so has to capture some of the design elements of the Defender.  Seeing it as a “copy” is a bit harsh, given how different it really is.  It has as many design elements from the G Wagen as the Defender.  Most good off-roaders have comparable (not necessarily mistakable) silhouettes; is the original Defender a copy of the Jeep Wrangler (remember the design history in 47), is a Nissan Patrol a copy of a G Wagen?  The closer you look at this thing, the more individuality you see, and the more refinement over all of its competitors and design contributors - they seem to be taking the best elements of many marques and making something better than all of them, with some very smart ideas of their own along the way, like the interior panels and switch gear.

[deep]

I, for one, am glad they are taking as much of the past along as repressive regulations allow.  Vehicle design trends lately have gone a bit brain dead - claustrophobic, poor visibility and vulnerable to damage.  The Grenadier is a breath of fresh air in today's market.  Not every aspect appeals to everyone and that's a good thing.  Despite the best efforts of various dictators and governments, we remain individuals.

I do love those tail lights too...

[Retroanaconda]

I’m told that those with deposits already in are being asked for another £2k or so to secure their order, and that the configurator on the website will open in April to allow them to do so. At this point we’ll hopefully see confirmed pricing too. 

[jeremy996]

Grenadier article in the April 2022 issue of Car Magazine, (page 90 to 97), with good pictures and explanations. Reads as deliveries slipping to August 2022 in the UK.

There is some more details on the ride and drive in France on the website, https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/ineos/grenadier-4x4/

I have had my e-mail warning me of the likely assult to my bank account, £2500, less the £450 already paid. Presumably it gets less refundable from April 2022.

view.grenadier.ineos.com.pdf

Edited March 9, 2022 by jeremy996
Added the warning e-mail

[jeremy996]

YouTube video from Overlanding Leks with a Q&A with a Grenadier employee, form a VIP unveiling in Chiswick. Sounds like deliveries are slipping to September and the final configurator and price list by the end of this month - if you have reserved, keep checking your inbox!

 

[jeremy996]

Another warm-up email from Ineos, saying that the prices and configurator will be up on the 28th April 2022

"Hi Jeremy,   We’re now into ‘the Final Mile’ of engineering testing. Prototypes are moving down the line at our factory in Hambach. Our sales and service network around the world is taking shape. And we’re getting ready to announce full vehicle specifications and pricing – so that you can lock in your Grenadier order for production, and be one of the first to take delivery of our uncompromising 4X4.  In anticipation of this milestone, we wanted to give you an outline of what information to expect and when, and also to answer some of the questions about the ordering process that we know are front of mind. So, here goes:  APRIL 28th  Go to www.ineosgrenadier.com, where from April 28th you’ll find full vehicle specifications and pricing, trim packs, options and accessories giving you an opportunity to soak up all the information before we open the order books. We’ll also answer your questions on how to buy and service your Grenadier.   Our customer services team will also be on standby, on the phone and by email, to answer any questions you may have. customerservice@ineosgrenadier.com.  MAY 2022  Our order books will open in May, allowing you to firm up the build slot you previously reserved into a full specification vehicle order. It’s a little later than planned, but we’ve had a few issues outside our control to deal with and want to make sure everything is just right for you.  To confirm that order, we’ll be asking for a second payment of GBP 2050. Please know that – as with the reservation fee of GBP 450 – this sum remains fully refundable, and you’ll still be able to make minor changes to your specification until closer to your production date. At this point we will, of course, need you to sign a sales contract as we lock your Grenadier specification into the production schedule.

NOW, TO ANSWER SOME OF YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTIONS:  What time will orders open?  Once we’ve confirmed the date, the order book will open at 08:00 BST on that day. But no need to set an alarm – we’ll keep open our ‘priority access window’, solely for reservists for about a month, after that we’ll be opening it up to all comers. But rest assured we will send you reminders during the month so you can secure that early build slot.  I’ve been following the Grenadier story since the beginning and was one of the first to place a reservation on 30th September last year. Can you confirm it’s still ‘first-come, first-served' now that you’re ready to take orders? Absolutely, that’s still the case. We’re holding build slots for all reservists. ‘Hand raisers’ who placed their reservation between 30th September 2021 and 13th October 2021 will have priority access to the first batch of build slots. Those who placed their reservations after then will have priority access to the second batch of build slots.  Non-reservist orders will be allocated build slots after that. All build slots are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis within your priority group and will be held for around one month.   What if I want to drive one before I buy?  That’s your prerogative, of course, and completely understandable. Equally you’ll understand there’s a bit of ‘chicken and egg’ here! We will continue to provide opportunities to experience the Grenadier on our 2B prototype tours, and will have a fleet of demonstrators to offer test drives in from August onwards - by which time we will be building customer vehicles to order.  Consequently, deferring your order placement until after your test drive will mean a later delivery. From August you’ll be able to visit your local retailer and take away a Grenadier for a test drive. Reservations and orders are refundable until you sign the vehicle contract, and we’ll confirm the date when you get a build slot.   Do I pay the deposit online or at the retailer? On order day, you can make your deposit of GBP 2050 online, either via Visa or Mastercard – and as with the reservation fee of GBP 450, it remains fully refundable until you sign your contract. The balance payment, when due prior to handover, will be by bank transfer.   How do I sign the vehicle contract? We will contact you around 60 days before the start of your Grenadier’s build to request an eSignature of your vehicle contract.  Can I change my configuration after ordering? You can make tweaks right up until you sign your vehicle contract, but it may have an impact on your production slot. The factory don’t want us changing engines, gearboxes, interior trims but you can change your paint colour or chosen accessories, for example. Our customer service centre is on hand to help get it sorted.   How long will it take to build my Grenadier?  We’ll give you the estimated build slot month once you’ve placed your order and an estimated delivery date when we ask you to sign your contract. The precise lead time depends on demand.   Will you keep me posted about my Grenadier’s production?  We certainly will. You’ll receive updates on your Grenadier’s status in your INEOS account. We’ll also contact you at the appropriate time when your contract is ready to sign and finance applications open.   I seem to be missing out on emails other people are getting?  We had some early issues with email permission settings which meant that some of you weren’t receiving all our communications. We’ve now fixed this, but if you were affected, we apologise sincerely.   Can’t see your question here?   CONTACT US"

[ThreePointFive]

Oh right, this whole thing still going is it?

Not sure I love the "You want to drive one before you spend £50k, are you a loser?" attitude. I am sure that pressuring potential customers for wanting to drive a car that has so far been 99% marketing hype will be a workable long term strategy.

A Company that was prepared to stand by its product should be putting out demonstrators etc before the build slots open. No one should be buying blind.

 

 

[L19MUD]

1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said:

Oh right, this whole thing still going is it?

Not sure I love the "You want to drive one before you spend £50k, are you a loser?" attitude. I am sure that pressuring potential customers for wanting to drive a car that has so far been 99% marketing hype will be a workable long term strategy.

A Company that was prepared to stand by its product should be putting out demonstrators etc before the build slots open. No one should be buying blind.

 

 

Totally agree with this. I like the original concept, was put off by the non UK build and the further we get down the line I feel you would be better off getting some reputable to build a Defender to your spec than one of these.

 

Seems a better way to hold your money in the long term

[Snagger]

9 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

Oh right, this whole thing still going is it?

Not sure I love the "You want to drive one before you spend £50k, are you a loser?" attitude. I am sure that pressuring potential customers for wanting to drive a car that has so far been 99% marketing hype will be a workable long term strategy.

A Company that was prepared to stand by its product should be putting out demonstrators etc before the build slots open. No one should be buying blind.

 

 

I don’t perceive that tone at all.  They just seem to be openly clarifying a reasonable policy of those who defer firm orders slipping back behind those who do order.  Seems fair to me, and clarifying it just heads off confusion or potential complaint later.