I voted "Yes"

[muddyplugger]

So I guess everyone who used the forum would have to agree before they joined that anything they wrote may be used in a mag.

Hmmn - looks like I just changed my mind!

I think this has just changed my mind.

It is flattering that the information on this site is of great interest to the wider Land Rover community, and it is with that in mind that people post, however these magazine wigs are making several quid out of it, so I think it only right that the author be sourced to write a piece for the mag and recompensed accordingly.

My two penneth.

[Mark]

Playing devils advocate...

There is really nothing stopping some jounalist coming on to this forum, reading a thread, and basing an article on it with no credit or recognition whatsoever. I would far rather they asked, and acknolegded that the information came from this source, than passed off said 'article' as thier own.

Mark

[LR90]

Well FWIW I'm voting NO but the mods and admins have put the poll up because this is an independent forum run for its members and I think this thread is a good bit of open discussion.

Also for me I was concerned that the approach is not from LRM but from Bigfoot who is now getting LRM to sponsor what he had been leading everyone to believe was to be an 'indepentent' forum free from external influences I would have great fear that LR4x4 would not be the main beneficiary of Bigfoot passing off info from here into his articles in LRM.

We set this up for the members because we wanted to be independent and it is only here because of the generosity of our members. I think we have created something very special here and like Tony I would be very concerned about compromising it.

[Happyoldgit]

this is an independent forum run for its members

I'll drink to that

<hic>

[geoffbeaumont]

I still remember the LRE / LRA RG / Pain / uncertainty / lies / broken promises / posturing / unpleasantness and general Squabbling that followed, .....................and here we all are now ..............and damned fine forum it is too, growing well and good tech info....

Whilst the Idea is "Ok" in theory........... I have a huge mistrust that we will NOT :

I don't think there's any reason why this should lead to the same situation - we aren't talking about giving LRM any control over the forum. If anything, the balance would be in the other direction (ie. if we didn't like how they were behaving we simple don't allow them any more copy).

If we want this then I am sure OUR mods are more than capable of getting us a deal and 101% of all the benefits and credit we deserve,

I WOULD 100% support that option........... B) ...in fact its a good idea so what about it Les ?...another Poll ?

Nige

This, on the other hand, would give LRM leverage over us. We don't need the money, so I don't think we should consider entering into a commercial relationship. As you say, we've been there before, and it hurt. If they were to pay individual forum members for their copy that would be another matter, but the forum itself should not be directly involved.

For me the issue lies in this statement,

So ……LRA are sponsored and the sponsors then come to an independent forum (LR4x4) for their magazine content …….that doesn’t seem right , both from the commercial sense and the political history of how this site was formed ……. we should not dismiss the later.

Just to throw the flip side of that into the discussion - it's also maybe an opportunity to heal some wounds.

I would vote yes if LRM took responsibility to request publication from both the site Admin AND the contributor. LRM must also pay the going article rate to the LR4x4 bank account……. that way we would retain our independence AND ensure the financial longevity of the forum.

See comments above on the financial side - numerous members have already made sure the forum has a secure future. The money we have in the bank won't last forever, but we've already proven we can go it alone.

I think if we did go ahead with this then permission would have to be sought from members (probably via the mods/admins) to use their content. I don't believe there is anything in our terms and conditions which places copy on this forum in the public domain or gives the admin team the right to authorise it's use elsewhere (ie. LRM have no right to use it without the authors permission).

[Mark90]

I voted No for various reasons.

Fristly it does seem a little odd that the approach is from LRA/Bigfoot and not directly from LRM. More behind the scene dealings going on again? LRA make a big thing about being independent from LRE then climb straight in to bed with LRM (only LRW of the big 4 not to have that forum, how long I wonder ). Having set up a truely independent forum here do we want to get back in to ties with magazines / advertisers?

Free loading journo hacks, get yer own material or pay for it. The only way I'd be infavour of it (and even then I'm not totally sure) is if the site admin/mods and the contributors of the material to be used where approch and all where in agreement, logistically can't see that happening. And also that an appropriate rate is paid for the material/article to either forum or contributor.

Name in lights, not really bothered (ok who was that at the back who said not likely either ), I've had my mug in LRM and I still wasn't invited on to CBB I'd think twice about posting on a forum if I thought my knowledge (quite at the back!) was going to be used to line someone else's pockets.

The only thing that I see in favour of it is giving access to good quality technical articles to the wider LR community (something that is lacking in the current rag offerings) but if the mags want to do that then they need to look at who they employ to write the articles.

[SteveG]

I'd be ok if they made a direct approach to this forum and recognised author and forum as source. I'd also prefer to keep independent status and allow any of the mags to approach the forum. One obviously shouldn't bother though!

I'm not sure what Trevor is trying to achieve with LRA, he's obviously marketing it hard and is offering free hosting and service for clubs to have their own forum. This is a good thing, but I suspect that this is a move to drive trafic to the site not fully for the good of the clubs, maybe I'm too cynical.

I like the approach of LR4x4. It's only as good as the content the posters add. It's only popular by having interesting content and worthwhile community. No marketing drives, no need for advertising, no need to try and boost member numbers etc etc

We are getting new members all of the time which is a good thing for new blood, points of views etc.

Lastly I'm surprised at some of the comments on the mags. Most of the journos are just doing their job and earning a crust (owner of LRe excluded ). At least two of them post on here regularly so I'm surprised so many of you have this view about all of the mags

Cheers

Steve

[TJ101]

Playing devils advocate...

There is really nothing stopping some jounalist coming on to this forum, reading a thread, and basing an article on it with no credit or recognition whatsoever. I would far rather they asked, and acknolegded that the information came from this source, than passed off said 'article' as thier own.

Mark

I would have to agreed with Mark here,, nothing to stop someone, picking a thread to bits, and re-righting as there own work!!

Yes,, we must stay independent of the mags/advertisers, etc, but lets not cut off our nose to spit our face,,

surely, if the mods and the authors are in full agreement with a thread on this forum being used for a magazine article, and the forum received the going rate for what the article is worth, BUT only direct to the end user mag, not by way of a third party (no offence Bigfoot)

Until the poll sounds like the above,, I will be voting NO, I am afraid

[darthdicky]

I'm not particularly bothered as it'll all be stuff I've seen on the forum already, just a month or two later and probably in a reduced state. I think that if you want something considered for a magazine, post it on LRA or send the article direct to the magazine.

Richard

[SteveG]

I'm not particularly bothered as it'll all be stuff I've seen on the forum already, just a month or two later and probably in a reduced state. I think that if you want something considered for a magazine, post it on LRA or send the article direct to the magazine.

Richard

There's no pleasing you DD is there!

Steve

[s2hotdog]

What a interesting tread and poll I voted no

But it seems to be even stevens which is more interesting

Why should we give some C**p mag our info when they employ a t**t who dos'nt know his RR from his 90 to lift our good and usful info ............. so the mag looks good

So no no no no

Only my personel opinion of course

Steve

[SimonPearson]

I voted "YES".

Just seems to me that in tehse times of DVLA/Ramblers/Government/Anti's/Everyone against us the media could do with whatever help they get, so long as they are pro-Off-Roading.

[Mark90]

Lastly I'm surprised at some of the comments on the mags. Most of the journos are just doing their job and earning a crust (owner of LRe excluded ). At least two of them post on here regularly so I'm surprised so many of you have this view about all of the mags

Fair point, maybe my comments about journo's weren't very complimentary and maybe they shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush. Some do seem to be decent guys who know their stuff and are real enthusiasts too, others are just journo's.

No David I'm not saying which group I think you belong to

[Mo Murphy]

I voted "YES".

Just seems to me that in tehse times of DVLA/Ramblers/Government/Anti's/Everyone against us the media could do with whatever help they get, so long as they are pro-Off-Roading.

Unfortunately though, Simon, we both know that if the publishers thought they could make more money dropping land rovers and backing ramblers, they would.

I say keep them at arms length, don't slam the door in their face but don't invite them in either.

Mo

[Niall_CSK]

I threw my hat in with the neay sayers as well, Nige, Tony, Luke, Geoff etc. all agreed and some excellent points voiced.

Just seems to me that in tehse times of DVLA/Ramblers/Government/Anti's/Everyone against us the media could do with whatever help they get, so long as they are pro-Off-Roading.

While I agree with that in principle Simon, there are plenty off efforts being put towards that and this forum is exactly that, a forum for views and opinions however personal and personally I feel that rather than pro-off-roading a proper balanced view should be taken as opposed to the ill informed drivel that comes from most of the self interest (centred) groups. I digress far too OT.

I know Trevor personally and like the guy, my wife would happily throttle him for selling me the ambulance though, but I am sure he has some commercial interest at heart. I was not involved with previous dealings and can't comment.

I don't personally know any of the moderators here but I would happily hand over my Landie keys to them any day of the week, might come back half a ton heavier if Nige got it That doesn't mean I can speak for everybody. The point I seem to be struggling to make is that it is my opinion that something like this has to be done on an individual basis. i.e. if someone want's to use information or an opinion that one individual has voiced here then they can quite easily PM them and ask, or ask them to write an article for the particular rag or other forum. I don't think you can give authorisation for a whole thread, too many people involved.

If I want to see my name in print I can write to a mag or just do an article for the Rangie Register mag.

This is my first port of call for information and opinions before I would even start looking back through old mags or writing to a mag for that matter. I want it to stay that way, I don't mind change before I am accused of that but I just feel there is no need for this at all.

I do realise that the forum needs funding and so far has managed to remain commendably commercial free, the money to run it has to come from somewhere and I could stand the odd small banner or word from our sponsor on occasion. Before it is commented on I have not donated as yet due to my location, I will do when I get back on leave and you can hold me to that.

Said my bit, coat on and heading for the Toyota put down that gas axe Nige

[simonr]

I think that all the mags at the moment could do with trawling the forums, not to steal copy, but to gain an idea of what people are interested in and use it as a guide to what to write articles about.

There are some threads which crop up time and again in different guises - things fitting portal axles to 'how do I fit an electric fan'.

That way the mags could benefit themselves it terms of being more relevent to most readers while not potentially putting peoples nosed out of joint for blatent copying.

Si

[AJL]

i voted no!

[Bigfoot]

Interesting discussion this has turned out to be!

I’m not going to get into the whole debate about the sponsorship of the Land Rover Addict Forum here. Suffice to say that over at LRAF, we’re not in the fortunate situation that you have here, namely massive financial support from a huge membership. We have a relatively small and happy active membership, albeit growing all the time (and I’m not very good at asking for money). The one comment I will make is that the members of LRAF have embraced the idea of LRM sponsoring the forum with open arms. The magazine seems to be very highly regarded indeed.

However, I would like to clarify a couple of points.

Perhaps it is my fault, but I feel Les has misunderstood or misinterpreted my original request. I did not ask to use the full content of two or three interesting threads for possible publication in LRM. I asked for a couple of interesting threads to be pointed out to me so that the essence of the discussions could be mentioned in a possible regular article. I also made it clear that the forum, from which each piece of material was drawn, would be credited as the source.

My request was driven by a desire to forge better relations with you, our forum neighbours, and to be able to produce a balanced piece for the magazine – I don’t wish to be writing exclusively about the Land Rover Addict Forum, rather the activities of numerous Land Rover forums that are out there. I was offering Les a chance to have his forum highlighted on a regular basis.

The result of your poll will be interesting for sure and I really don’t mind if my request is rejected - there is plenty of material on the Internet to draw upon. Finally, I should say that the proposed regular feature might not even get off the ground, so we could be wasting our words on zilch

[western]

offering Les a chance to have his forum highlighted

Well that line isn't correct, it's NOT Les's forum, he is only 1 of the Adminstrators/members, this forum belongs to ALL members not just 1 person.

[tuko]

I might be interperting some of the comment wrong, but , it appears a few have forgotten WHY we had so many problems with R.G. He wouldn't listen to us, would use any of the material ( suggestions, ideas, conversions, improvements ) that we discussed regularly on the forum. He was basically a stubborn old fart, that didn't give a rats a$$ about us, nor the Land Rover gold mine we were willing to give to his magazine.

Now, it appears that there is a publication that might be willing to listen to us, might want to use "our" material in it's pages. Of course, permission, recognition must be given to the authors, but why not give it a try?

Caution, I agree, but lets see where this leads, maybe this is finally the step forward in the Land Rover community that we've always were looking for.

Todd.

[white90]

Trev

I haven't time for along winded reply but:

this isn't Les's mine or any of the mods/admins forum

it is wholly owned by the members.

thanks for the offer to advertise the site but in reality it is doing ok as is.

the membership/content is growing steadily, a superb tech archive is appearing.

this site will always be fully independant of any outside ownership/sponsorship

there is no need now or ever to look for principle sponsors.

the members pay if they are short the admins/mods have agreed to pay for as long as is needed.

Les will answer for himself I'm sure when he can.

but as I said producing copy for any mag is not what this site exists for.

[siggy]

Ok Logged on to the forum after hard day at work saw this topic looked at the top bit voted then read this thread

And now I'm going to put my point of view

Ok we can not stop the writers of the LRM from joining this Forum and reading our threads and if one of the members rights an interesting article then maybe the MAGAZINE should approach that member to write an article for the magazine, for which the magazine pays .... This will be a totally new article and not a cut and paste of this article....and if the member tells them to foxtrot oscar then maybe they should......

[robhybrid]

Do we have any come back If somebody does re-produce details from the forum?

Will we be missing out if other forums are advertised/credited in magasines and this one is not?

I seem to think that word of mouth is getting stronger by the day.

This thread although possibly pointles certanly has got some very constructive and debate encouraging coments.

For what it is worth I was directed here first before voting.(cheers Fi)

I intend on voting no, this could be swayed if the poll was re-worded.

[robhybrid]

Out of interest I have noticed just over 100 people have now voted.

Scanning down the list of top posters (my assistant/top 10 posters,page10), when you get to look at the post count for the 100th top poster they are down to 60ish posts.

got myself confuddled as to why this might be relevent now

Damn red wine!

[Neil Marshall]

got myself confuddled as to why this might be relevent now - Damn red wine!

I bet my second bottle's emptier than yours!

I understand all the comments about respecting the Forum's independence, which is a good thing, but I am reminded that most of the criticisms that I hear about aspects of the various magazines is that they are only interested in promoting products supplied by their advertisers, and not in writing articles about what us committed Land Rover people really want to read about, or what our aspirations are for our truck.

So wouldn't it be helpful to others out there who read the rags if they drew some inspiration from the knowledge and experience that I see around here every time I log on? I have some sympathy with the comments on attribution - if you've given a great answer to help someone on this Forum, or if you have an exciting or perplexing problem to deal with, then I agree that names should be named if possible.

Anything that appears on this forum is not really covered by any meaningful copyright, as it exists in the no-man's-land of cyberspace, having been technically but only loosely published in America [via the web host], so any text can be lifted or quoted or para-phrased without real redress; so surely it would be best to form a healthy relationship with a mag like LRM, which most people aclnowledge as one of the better ones, to draw positive attention to the great service that this Forum offers the Land Rover community.

I think that the original approach could have been better worded, as has been acknowledged above, and indeed it is up to us in this community to determine on what precise basis any relationship should be framed. But I think it would be a positive step to take, which is why I voted in favour.

Neil