ibex 300 build

[Blanco]

I ran a D2 Td5 as a car and a 110 300 Tdi as a work vehicle, always heavily loaded. The Td5 always won the mpg battle and periodically did do some of the heavy towing, I always reckoned the Td5  was more economical. It also had more performance on the motorway. The minute I changed the front bumper for a steel one and ruined the aero equation, I reckoned the two were very comparible. I would say a Td5 is going to give you marginal benefit except that it brings you a bit more up to date availability wise?

[Blanco]

Btw, autos are an age thing,.... I suspect you will get there one day, .... so also consider how long term this is?

[miketomcat]

21 minutes ago, Blanco said:

Btw, autos are an age thing,.... I suspect you will get there one day, .... so also consider how long term this is?

I seriously doubt it, even if my ankle gives out completely I'll find a way to operate the clutch.

The main reason for enquiring about td5 is my radiator is a temporary get by as is my gearbox so I figured buying a complete disco 2 would give everything and I could sell some bits to recoup, however it would also be a lot of work to swap.

The quickest and cheapest solution is find a secondhand 200tdi and switch it. A recon 200 would be lovely but I'm not sure if I can stretch to that at the moment.

However I didn't want to going down this route if there was a much better abet more expensive option I could save for and whilst there are better options, I don't think the overall improvement is enough to justify's the cost.

Mike

[elbekko]

12 hours ago, miketomcat said:

The quickest and cheapest solution is find a secondhand 200tdi and switch it. A recon 200 would be lovely but I'm not sure if I can stretch to that at the moment.

I am, sadly, reminded of the Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness:

Quote

The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

It's a difficult pit to get out of, but spending a bit more now might save you a lot of money later on. Because a second-hand 200TDi will probably just have/develop the same problems all the previous ones have had...

[Nonimouse]

You know my thoughts on 200Tdi. Simplicity, ease of maintenance, frugality and they sound nice. The only lump I would swap to is a 3.5/3.9 V8. Yes I do like the various Merc engines that would fit, but apart for the 617, they are all subject to reliability issues over time, just as any second hand lump is; but unlike the 200, parts cost a fortune.

As for power...meh. If I want quick, i'll sell the Disco and buy a big old Audi.

Scarcity of parts will probably become an issue, but it's not bad, yet

And a a refresh on a 200 is actually quick, cheap and simple

[miketomcat]

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

I am, sadly, reminded of the Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness:

It's a difficult pit to get out of, but spending a bit more now might save you a lot of money later on. Because a second-hand 200TDi will probably just have/develop the same problems all the previous ones have had...

You're quite right, which is why I'm investigating other options. I'm very money and time shy at the moment (unfortunately this is a regular occurrence) and I may need to kick it down the line for now, which of course is exactly what the current engine was doing. Rebuilding the other engine is what I need to do but that doesn't get me to work everyday in the meantime.

Mike

[elbekko]

1 hour ago, miketomcat said:

You're quite right, which is why I'm investigating other options. I'm very money and time shy at the moment (unfortunately this is a regular occurrence) and I may need to kick it down the line for now, which of course is exactly what the current engine was doing. Rebuilding the other engine is what I need to do but that doesn't get me to work everyday in the meantime.

Mike

I know. Sucks. If I weren't so far away I'd offer to do the rebuild for you.

[Nonimouse]

Worst case with the 'other' engine, is going to be head skim, so you can get the valves re-seated at that time; big ends, rings, hone (very unlikely), glue the cam back in, with new white metal bearings (line bore is very unlikely) and a shed load of seals. The oil pump will look like new. I would fit a centralising spacer on the lift pump, new water pump. That's two days work with the engine in the vehicle, but on a lift, so a long weekend with Fridge. 

[FridgeFreezer]

Also worth reiterating that Mike's other family runabout is also a 200TDi so keeping the fleet running a common engine and rebuilding the least knackered one that's on the bench makes a lot of sense, having one vehicle running a 200 and the other running a TD5 or something means two sets of spares.

[Bowie69]

So....

• Skim head
• Replace cam bearings
• Flex hone the bores (assuming within spec)
• New rings, bearings, gaskets and seals

<£500?

Would it last? No idea on the condition of the engine other than the cam bearing.

[Daan]

25 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

So....

• Skim head
• Replace cam bearings
• Flex hone the bores (assuming within spec)
• New rings, gaskets and seals

<£500?

Would it last? No idea on the condition of the engine other than the cam bearing.

More of the same kicking the can up the road; If you go to the trouble to remove the pistons, you may well be putting in new ones, or you could well be doing the same job again in a few year's time, in which case it is £500 down the drain.

Following on from what Fridge is saying, could you do 2 engines at the same time? Perhaps get a good deal on getting 2 blocks re-bored and a better deal on 2 part sets? It would also reduce the build time considerably, as you just do everything twice, as opposed to doing 2 rebuilds separately. Not the thing you want to hear, I know, but I'd say long-term could be worth doing. 

I bought a new engine in 2000- and I still run it today with very few repairs, apart from new bearing shells and a replacement crank when I put a rock through the sump, which was accidental. The outlay was hard to swallow at the time, but I never regretted it. That said, it was half the price of what Turner's asks for a rebuilt engine now. how times change!

[steve b]

The only way to know exactly what needs doing is to strip it and have everything measured to see what needs doing.

A quick shop on Turners for rings, bearing shells (incl. cam) , all gaskets , seals, new cambelt/idler/tensioner but no cyl. head parts or pistons comes to just under £600 delivered. Add £300 for an engine shop to clean it all and measure everything.

If it's all in tolerance you're off the slipway for under a grand?

Just a weekend to build it then another to swap it in?

Steve

 

[landroversforever]

As much as jumping to something differen't may be good long term, I'm with fridge and the fleet side of things. 

You've got the benefit of a spare engine sat there, so a strip down of that for a look over and measure would show what it needs. I'm really not up to speed, but can't see any of the conversions being done for under £2.5K, especially with a lack of free time (or space?) to do something like a Td5 and break the rest of the D2. 

I'd be looking at the option whilst it's stripped to go for the balls out rebuild like Ralph's 200. If you're building it, then the extra costs are parts, and only the labour for the machine work. 

[Ed Poore]

Just to throw an offer in there but I have a couple of contacts who I might be able to coerce into doing the boring free of charge or very cheaply.

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

So....

• Skim head
• Replace cam bearings
• Flex hone the bores (assuming within spec)
• New rings, bearings, gaskets and seals

<£500?

Would it last? No idea on the condition of the engine other than the cam bearing.

The Cam bearing is a stoneage design of cam in block, supported by white metal bearings. The engine will run with no oil pressure for 50k or more, by which time you would need to line bore the remains of the bearing supports and fit over sized bearings.

Two things cause this in a 200tdi: 1). ramping the ar5e off the engine for long periods of time, over 10's of 1000's of miles; or 2). overheating (a lot), which is almost impossible to do unless you drive accross the Danekil depression with no water in the cooling system. We are talking ABUSE here. The sort of abuse an M57 would overheat and/or snap a timing chain in, a 300tdi would crack a head, but keep working or an OM606 would warp. In 12 200's I've had 1 move it's cam...  I've worked on three since 1990 and only one had to line bored.

So a 'refresh' using tools and not just a hammer, should comfortably see that engine through another 250K

[Snagger]

21 hours ago, elbekko said:

I am, sadly, reminded of the Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness:

It's a difficult pit to get out of, but spending a bit more now might save you a lot of money later on. Because a second-hand 200TDi will probably just have/develop the same problems all the previous ones have had...

Wise man, that Vimes.  😉
 

And as I remember his view on boots, he was highly averse to changing from his worn though boots as they were so familiar and worn in that he could feel where he was with them, new boots lead to him being disoriented.  Well, that can apply to engines too…  200Tdis are so simple to maintain and use, and having driven them for so long you know the noises and behaviours so can predict their behaviour or sense a problem before it becomes serious, but can you do so with an engine type new to you, and can you have the same sense of security from a non-standard engine shoehorned in with all the modified or custom parts to make it all join up?

[Jon W]

The other thing it comes down to is, are you happy with a 200tdi? Does it do what you want and need it to? Can you live with it everyday or will you find situations where it will bug you and you think dam I wish I had put that x y or z engine in. 

200 is simple and ticks a lot of boxes but isn't refined and is noisy, but then a lot of that might have been addressed with your ibex build such as sound proofing, discovery engine mounts etc. 

I keep thinking I want to change mine, as it is noisy but cant justify it for the amount I use it. Its ease of working on it and the fact it starts when I need it to, will do a full 800 mile weekender of 70mph on the motorway, thrash round a off road site for 2 days and get home again will do all that at 26-30mpg and can chuck some veg oil in when I am getting scared of diesel prices

[FridgeFreezer]

18 hours ago, Daan said:

More of the same kicking the can up the road; If you go to the trouble to remove the pistons, you may well be putting in new ones, or you could well be doing the same job again in a few year's time, in which case it is £500 down the drain.

Maybe I'm missing something here but are pistons themselves a wear item? I can understand rings, big & little ends, etc. but the actual pistons?

[miketomcat]

14 minutes ago, Jon W said:

The other thing it comes down to is, are you happy with a 200tdi? Does it do what you want and need it to? Can you live with it everyday or will you find situations where it will bug you and you think dam I wish I had put that x y or z engine in. 

200 is simple and ticks a lot of boxes but isn't refined and is noisy, but then a lot of that might have been addressed with your ibex build such as sound proofing, discovery engine mounts etc. 

I keep thinking I want to change mine, as it is noisy but cant justify it for the amount I use it. Its ease of working on it and the fact it starts when I need it to, will do a full 800 mile weekender of 70mph on the motorway, thrash round a off road site for 2 days and get home again will do all that at 26-30mpg and can chuck some veg oil in when I am getting scared of diesel prices

More power would always be nice but yes the 200 does everything I ask of. Refinement isn't high on my list if it was I'd own a normal car. Unfortunately anything I do will have to wait till after Xmas 🤞As I need to rejig upstairs to create a third bedroom, before my children murder eachother. We were hoping to extend but that isn't going to happen either at the moment.

Mike

[steve b]

Not in the service sense of shells, but ring grooves get worn oversize on width 

12 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Maybe I'm missing something here but are pistons themselves a wear item? I can understand rings, big & little ends, etc. but the actual pistons?

and diameter of the piston skirt can get worn , not to mention combustion damage/wear to the diameter at the crown. This is why I still say the only way to make a truly informed Factual decision is to strip it and measure everything. 

Of course , as Mike has just said, household peace and harmony come at the top of the list so hopefully in the new year the strip down and fact finding mission can happen.

Steve

[miketomcat]

6 minutes ago, steve b said:

as Mike has just said, household peace and harmony come at the top of the list so hopefully in the new year the strip down and fact finding mission can happen.

Steve

Dear god, you haven't met my wife and kids have you....

Mike

[steve b]

 

There's always the Ibox as a back up 

Steve

 

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Maybe I'm missing something here but are pistons themselves a wear item? I can understand rings, big & little ends, etc. but the actual pistons?

Pistons can get damage from seizing, sometimes from chattering rings, but generally they only need replacing when the block gets a rebore.  Rings, on the other hand, should be replaced any time the bores are honed.  As long as the oil has been reliably replaced and the engine not cooked, it is common for the crank to be unworn and for new shells to be installed without any re grinding.  It is rare for the little ends or budge on pins to have any wear at all, likewise the cam shaft, unless a bearing moved or a cam follower got sticky and turned the same shape as a 50p piece, but the cam shaft is a cheap replacement as it is common with the 12 and 19J (I have a spare from a 19J that I broke down).

[Peaklander]

3 hours ago, steve b said:

ring grooves get worn oversize on width

That happened to one piston in my 300Tdi. I don't know why but it was replaced along with all other piston's rings.

[Bowie69]

Yup, with worn piston skirts you start getting horrible slap as it rocks around on the gudgeon pin.