Engine conversions for a 2015 Puma

[BogMonster]

Bit of a discussion thread for a project which might or might not ever happen, I don't think I have seen a thread looking at this.

I've got a 2015 2.2 TDCi 110 Utility Station Wagon. The engine is great on road over about 30mph and 3rd/4th/5th/6th gears, has a BAS 150hp map which improved driveability considerably when I first got it.

However I really dislike it at low speed <30mph) around town (shunty, lousy gearchange) and off road, rough ground, or anywhere there is stop-start driving and lots of 1-2-3 gearchanges. It's just a hateful thing to drive, a view I have had of most of the Pumas I have driven, though you find the odd one with a tight drivetrain.

When it goes bang (generally seems to be a when rather than an if for the Puma engines) what are the options for swapping to something else and the pros and cons of each, particularly around whether you can buy an off the shelf conversion kit as the vehicle is in the Falklands and if there's something missing it's weeks or months waiting to order it in, not an overnight delivery.

A 300Tdi is one option, but ideally something with more power and all the 300s are getting old now. I have a 300Tdi 110 as well and I like it off road but loaded up I could do with more power on road. If I could describe my ideal choice it would have the soft and tractable throttle response of a 300 off road, about 150hp and about 300lb ft, ideally a variable vane turbo, and ideally noise and vibration levels more Puma than Tdi, though to be honest that's a less important issue. Reliability is important. Not sounding like a Transit would be good too.

I've heard of lots of options including BMW engines (strikes me as quite a complex fit), Merc engines like the (?) OM606, retro-fit and tune a 300Tdi or even the 2.8 variant. Don't have a strong bias between manual or auto, probably lean towards manual but it's not essential. Without knowing much about it the OM606 sort of sounds nice but I guess the engines are getting on now agewise and probably quite in demand. I've no idea how complicated any of the conversion are TBH.

Thoughts please, ideally from those that have done it? I'd like to be able to just drop it at a specialist but obviously I can't due to location.

It may never happen but just swapping out for another 2.2 engine when it does go bang seems dull. Discuss

[hurbie]

i think you might get in trouble replacing a modern engine for a old one , you have to comply with current emissions .

 

(on a side note , before the Eurover project started my plan was to convert a 110 to a 130, it is possible by dutch law , but you are then building a "new" vehicle wich has to comply with modern emission's . so that was the end of the 130 project )

[muddy]

The M57 is getting very popular (I have one in the yard) and you can get an adaptor plate to bolt to the MT82, however they seem quite revvy but I have not driven one so can't comment... top off road Romania on you tube have them in patrols and everything seems to be done on the limiter. The OM606 is very agricultural in comparison and you could use either the electronic pump or convert to mechanical however I think this would need careful displacement selection and turbo size to get drivability.

As with any engine conversion many people are trying to make a 150mph defender and have little mechanical ability in reality and the finishing of the conversion brackets, hoses etc ends up letting the whole job down and I see quite few forsale at ridiculous prices.

Whatever you do I think I would be tempted to try and keep the standard gearbox as that saves a lot of interior work.

 

What about a Perkins 4.2 six pot 

[steve b]

What about a modern EDI 4cyl Cummins? 

Toyota Amazon 6cyl diesel? 

What would be a common diesel locally(?) in South America? 

Do you have compliance to take account of?

Steve

[Bowie69]

I'm not sure the emissions thing is true, last I read was it tested for MOT by age of engine or vehicle, whichever was older.

 

 

 

 

[monkie]

I thought that you shouldn't tamper with a device fitted to your engine that is part of an emissions control system (even though people commonly blank off EGR). If this is true then surely replacing an engine for an older one which would be down grading in terms of euro compliance would be not allowed? 

 

Also, if your car has a DPF (like a puma 2.2) you will fail an mot if you remove the dpf. So if for example you were to replace a 2.2 tdci with a 2.4, surely that would be not allowed? 

[Retroanaconda]

In the UK yes potentially, but the OP is in the Falklands and so probably has a different set of vehicle regulations.

M57s get a good write up - forum member Mo Murphy is fitting one into his 90 right now.  

[L19MUD]

I suspect (from the state of some of the vehicles I have seen in the Falklands in the past on the road) that the rules in the Falklands are not anywhere near as stringent as the UK or the states

[BogMonster]

Sorry, I should have said - there are no issues with either type approval, or emissions. My 2015 is to the old EU2 spec, no DPF or anything. I can put a steam engine in it if I want to

[Chicken Drumstick]

Someone in the U.K. was offering a 3.7 V6 conversion. Bit pricey but that engine bolts up to the Puma gearbox. Ford Modular V8 would be another option. Obviously you’d need to still fab mounts and plumb it all in. 
 

If you don’t mind replacing the gearbox then there are several other V8 Options too such as a Chevy LS1. 

[reb78]

2.8 TGV???

 

[Escape]

I always found the TD5 much nicer than the Tdci. 😉

[Landy7]

Ford 2.2TDCI (122bhp) -> Ford 2.3 Ecoboost (305bhp)

JE Motorworks converts Land Rover Defender to Ford Ecoboost power | Autocar

[Junglie]

Are you at Mount Pleasant, and are you military, civvy or actually a Falklander?

I have some mates with Air Tanker and we might be able to facilitate getting stuff to you (no rule breaking, and there may be a cost) to save time at least.

I've not driven an M57 in a Landy but as a road engine it's a sweet unit and seems pretty reliable. Personally I'm swapping a V8 into my 2.5NA and it's a relatively simple conversion. 

One thought. Does the ECU for the Puma also handle things like ABS and traction control, if they're fitted? Because if so you may be a bit limited on choices...

[western]

Bogmonster is a residential Falklander, not HM Forces. 

[L19MUD]

37 minutes ago, Landy7 said:

Ford 2.2TDCI (122bhp) -> Ford 2.3 Ecoboost (305bhp)

JE Motorworks converts Land Rover Defender to Ford Ecoboost power | Autocar

That would be awesome (if expensive). It is a pity they have not tried one with the 3.5v6 and that is a great engine in the much heavier F150

[Junglie]

35 minutes ago, western said:

Bogmonster is a residential Falklander, not HM Forces. 

Thanks.

[BogMonster]

1 hour ago, Junglie said:

Are you at Mount Pleasant, and are you military, civvy or actually a Falklander?

I have some mates with Air Tanker and we might be able to facilitate getting stuff to you (no rule breaking, and there may be a cost) to save time at least.

I've not driven an M57 in a Landy but as a road engine it's a sweet unit and seems pretty reliable. Personally I'm swapping a V8 into my 2.5NA and it's a relatively simple conversion. 

One thought. Does the ECU for the Puma also handle things like ABS and traction control, if they're fitted? Because if so you may be a bit limited on choices...

100% genuine Benny. No immediate requirements, but thanks for the offer

This is more a "pondering options for the future" post than something I'm immediately considering - there is nothing wrong with the current installation (apart from the lousy driveline).

The ROW-spec vehicles are still built the way they used to be i.e. pretty basic - so EU2 emissions, no ABS or ETC, no steering angle sensor, no alarm or immobiliser. I don't think binning the Ford ECU would bring any problems with other circuits because there really aren't any.

[Snagger]

I was very impressed with the small Cummins (2.8?) my friend fitted in his old 90.  That pulled really hard in 4th even on 35” tyres.  It was a crate engine, who should suit your circumstances well.  It wasn’t toor noise or unrefined like the big Cummins that were popular a couple of years ago.

[TSD]

I sort of agree with your objections to the 300tdi and 2.8 because they are all getting on a bit, but if you have the possibility to source donors from South America, then both could be attractive options (2.8 from a Ford Ranger, 2.5 from a Merc Sprinter?). Should be a relatively easy fit, using mostly standard parts. 2.8TGV in good fettle will give decent power and torque. When new, mine was smoother and quieter than a 300tdi, though 15 years on it's pretty noisy, and a bit down on power too.

ISTR Motor and Diesel sell an adapter for 300tdi to the Puma gearbox? (Think they also sell the 3.7 conversion mentioned above).

If the RoW spec Puma gets the usual Puma dashboard, then don't forget to factor the cost of driving that into your sums. I've only seen one off the shelf conversion to drive the Puma dash (from a tdi/td5), and while I don't remember what it cost, I do remember thinking it was pretty spendy for £25 worth of electronics.

[Nonimouse]

The OM606 is a lovely engine, but, and it's a big but, it's not the nicest Merc option, that would be the OM605. That's about perfect in any small to medium LR

Think is, old lad, you live a long way from easy supplies. For the 606, the best option is the mechanical pump out of an SD350 (and they are rocking horse poo, even in the UK, as the 350 engine was appalling and fragile {it's the 3.5litre version of the 606}). The best mechanical pump for the 605 is out of 662, which was fitted in the Sangyung Musso.  Staying electrical is an option but, again, not simple.  Unless TSD pops out for a holiday.

The Beemer options are nice, but are parts going to be easy?

I'd either change the box and keep the lump, until it goes bang, then throw in another 

 

Just read TSD's post. International Motors make a 3.0litre version of the 300, as fitted in the South American built Ford Ranger. It's lovely, loses all the issues witht he 2.8TGV and is readily avaialble (although the Merican's are buying them up)

[TSD]

Agreed, the 3.0 version is lovely. Similar performance to the Cummins 2.8. It would probably have made a great crate engine conversion for LR like the 2.8 before it, but as I recall, International would (or could) sell crate engines but not ECUs.

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, TSD said:

Agreed, the 3.0 version is lovely. Similar performance to the Cummins 2.8. It would probably have made a great crate engine conversion for LR like the 2.8 before it, but as I recall, International would (or could) sell crate engines but not ECUs.

This engine is a popular conversion in 40 series Land Cruisers, in Murica. I think they run a manual pump for that, or at least minimal electronics (similar to 300tdi auto's) and operate the turbo with an electromechanical. A mate of mine's wife had a 40 series with one in, I'll see if I can track him down (he lives in Arizon and Alaska) and find out more.

Admitedly I was more thinking Steve could aquire a used Ranger from his neighbours

[Nonimouse]

I've tracked him down. It was a 60 series not a 40. 

[Arjan]

Dare I mention the "M" word ?