ibex 300 build

[Ed Poore]

@Mo Murphy just did a 200Tdi to M57 swap so will have up to date figures. He had a bit of a healthier budget than Mike and was going auto but I think I can safely say that it was a damn sight more than rebuilding a 200Tdi. I doubt he regrets it but it ended up costing more than even he initially planned on.

[Bowie69]

I suspect an M57 with all the stuff required would be well outside your budget, if you are suggesting a 2.5K rebuild is going to be a push. 

[Mo Murphy]

... but I did end up adding a front locker, a complete stainless exhaust and an Ashcroft recon transfer box that I hadn't counted on 🤣

The 184bhp m57 small bellhousing from a Rangy will work with an R380 or an Mt82 but will require a conversion ring IIRC. ECU deimmobilising, a standalone harness, engine mounts and an exhaust downpipe.

House of Torque have some really good guides and sell conversion parts on their website.

You'd probably get it all in for the price of a 200 rebuild by turners.

HTH

Mo

[FridgeFreezer]

14 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

The 184bhp m57 small bellhousing from a Rangy will work with an R380 or an Mt82 but will require a conversion ring IIRC. ECU deimmobilising, a standalone harness, engine mounts and an exhaust downpipe.

House of Torque have some really good guides and sell conversion parts on their website.

You'd probably get it all in for the price of a 200 rebuild by turners.

...but then you'd have a fully electronic non-LR engine of relatively unknown providence with a load of custom parts.

Not saying it's not a lovely conversion but given Mike runs a fleet of 200TDi's it makes a lot of sense to stick - as it is, he has 2 trucks with 200TDi lumps and usually 1 or 2 200's sat round awaiting surgery, I can't see a cheaper easier or more practical option in that position than doing a rebuild on the least knackered one and dropping it in, then the old lump becomes a donor for the next inevitable rebuild...

[Mo Murphy]

1 minute ago, FridgeFreezer said:

...but then you'd have a fully electronic non-LR engine of relatively unknown providence with a load of custom parts.

Not saying it's not a lovely conversion but given Mike runs a fleet of 200TDi's it makes a lot of sense to stick - as it is, he has 2 trucks with 200TDi lumps and usually 1 or 2 200's sat round awaiting surgery, I can't see a cheaper easier or more practical option in that position than doing a rebuild on the least knackered one and dropping it in, then the old lump becomes a donor for the next inevitable rebuild...

That's true John, I'm not advocating merely offering information.

However Mike did ask the question about other engines and not about 200 TDIs 😬 👍

Personally I think home rebuild of the 200 is probably Mike's only option given his budget but it is a time consuming job and an enormous ballache to have to commit to.

Mo

[miketomcat]

Realistically as others have said I think I have no choice but to rebuild the cam engine. I could just do the cam bearings and put it back in, but it seems daft not to do more, though I could do without the time loss and expense. If there was something out there that was going to return better mpg I could live with more initial outlay. It just seems mad that there is nothing out there that does better mpg than a 30 year old clockwork diesel so much for progress. Granted most are more powerful but the ones that are 20 bhp more are generally significantly worse mpg.

As I said to start with I already knew the answer was likely rebuild or replace like for like. Thanks gents I guess start looking at it.

Mike

[hurbie]

have a good honest look at the parts when you open it up , a lot can be reused without much trouble . you could just rehone the bore's using a flexi hone and put new rings in them instead of having it rebored by a shop .

if the cam is still good (all the measurements are in the manual) just reuse it and put some bearings in .

 

(i had my own 200tdi rebored and fitted new pistons , i probely could got away with a hone and rings )

[landroversforever]

10 minutes ago, hurbie said:

have a good honest look at the parts when you open it up , a lot can be reused without much trouble . you could just rehone the bore's using a flexi hone and put new rings in them instead of having it rebored by a shop .

if the cam is still good (all the measurements are in the manual) just reuse it and put some bearings in .

 

(i had my own 200tdi rebored and fitted new pistons , i probely could got away with a hone and rings )

That said, budget dependent I'd be wanting to go as far as possible - do it 100% and do it once. 

[Jon W]

What about a 300tdi? Its like a 200tdi but some say more civilised? That extra 100 in the name must count for something? Or go down the 300tdi stroked route to 2.8tdi? more scope for more power for towing???

 

[Ed Poore]

I'm not sure a 300 offers that much more although on paper there's an appreciable amount of extra torque.

Perhaps a VNT for the 200 to get the power kicked in sooner would be a decent compromise. Rebuild the 200 and find a VNT that would suit the 200. That's the biggest improvement on the TGV compared to the 300 I think.

[miketomcat]

No point in a 300tdi as it's like a 200 but everything is in a different place. All the 300's I've had anything to do with have been no better than a 200 in fact I think they are a fair bit worse.

Mike

 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

31 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

It just seems mad that there is nothing out there that does better mpg than a 30 year old clockwork diesel so much for progress

I'm sure a lot of lumps would get better MPG, but they'd add electronics and be a ball ache to fit... ultimately there's a certain amount of power required to push a 2-ton brick along so you're never going to get a massive saving, and even though fuel's expensive, 1k still buys quite a few tanks of it so any conversion costing significant amounts of money has to work hard to pay for itself before you've even really saved any money.

Going from 27mpg to 35mpg saves you a whole £1500 over 20,000 miles

What a conversion does get you is a lump that will accelerate better / cruise a bit better / tow better while using no more fuel than your old 200, but it's a lot of work for no saving other than quality of life.

[bishbosh]

But it will use more fuel because it accelerates better  

[miketomcat]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Going from 27mpg to 35mpg saves you a whole £1500 over 20,000 miles

What a conversion does get you is a lump that will accelerate better / cruise a bit better / tow better while using no more fuel than your old 200, but it's a lot of work for no saving other than quality of life.

At 12000 miles a year that's more appealing than you think.

But you're quite right. I love the idea of more power etc but can't justify making the fuel cost worse.

And before anyone else say's it, no a cheap runaround doesn't help either the numbers don't stack no matter how you try to convince me.

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

23 minutes ago, bishbosh said:

But it will use more fuel because it accelerates better  

...but you spend less time wringing its neck to get it to go, so it uses less...

[miketomcat]

1 minute ago, FridgeFreezer said:

...but you spend less time wringing its neck to get it to go, so it uses less...

[Stellaghost]

@Ed Poore, do you still have a soon to be available Nissan engine, may suit Mike.....

Regards Stephen

[Ed Poore]

I wouldn't wish that upon him.

Revs nicely (and high for a diesel) but gutless torque - at least trying to drag the 6x6 around. In a lightweight with very short gearing perhaps. I had to drop to low first with an 18ft Ifor behind it with what amounted to most of a scrap P38 distributed between the 6x6 and the trailer and only just made it up the hill then... SL35 on the other hand - if we can find a cheap replacement V8 for the 6x6 perhaps...

[rusty_wingnut]

Yeah an old SL35 is a great engine - it will murder your gearbox though.

 

 

[Arjan]

I was going to stay out of this one but..... ".. an old SL35 is a great engine - it will murder your gearbox though.."

All down to your right foot / drivestyle

Had several Mazda's with both auto and manual boxes and never problems.

Only did a million kms. with one engine in a to some very well know Soft dash with an R380 / LT230 and I once changed the rubber donut.

And yes, we towed a lot as some of you know.

In fact, I had 2 of them sitting here to go into the 110 but that is not to be.

Rebuilding the 200 Tdi sounds like a good idea.

[rusty_wingnut]

Of course it's all down to right foot, the only gearbox we found would survive behind one was the V8 auto. 

[miketomcat]

3 hours ago, rusty_wingnut said:

Of course it's all down to right foot, the only gearbox we found would survive behind one was the V8 auto. 

This has always been my concern with any conversion and I hate autos.

Out of interest can anyone give me some real world mpg figures on a td5 with manual gearbox preferably with and without towing. Whilst not a straight forward fit it would be off the shelf parts.

Mike

[RedLineMike]

just swapped my td5 for a M57, should have done it years ago,
my only caveat is that although it is better on fuel than the td5 ever was, i like to make progress so that along with a roofrack & rooftent do hurt the mpg

[toenden]

3 hours ago, miketomcat said:

This has always been my concern with any conversion and I hate autos.

Out of interest can anyone give me some real world mpg figures on a td5 with manual gearbox preferably with and without towing. Whilst not a straight forward fit it would be off the shelf parts.

Mike

I just did the swap from a 300 -> td5. The consumption is approx the same (10 km/l) although the td5 is better on long runs (I swapped to 1:211 gearing at the same time, but that is NOT advisible with towing in mind). My parents run the same gearbox setup in a 90 td5 and it is lighter (11km/L). On long towing runs (3500kg trailer through europe) it runs 8,5 km/l (the 90).

I did the switch as my 300 develloped strange noises and my yearlong td5 "under the bench" project was moved forwards. I choose a td5 as I know they are tuneable to an OK degree (180 ish hp) without major mods and they are original found in defenders later on which here in DK is a bonus regarding MOT. 

I used the 300 gearbox crossmember and welded new enginemounts. But I happened to have a mate who ran his td5 into a tree so all the small connectors and parts (gearbox) was available. So a donor car Def./disco is a great Thing. 

The easiest/most timeeconomical is a recon/do-up of a 200 no doubt. 

/mads

[Snagger]

On 11/13/2023 at 1:54 PM, miketomcat said:

Realistically as others have said I think I have no choice but to rebuild the cam engine. I could just do the cam bearings and put it back in, but it seems daft not to do more, though I could do without the time loss and expense. If there was something out there that was going to return better mpg I could live with more initial outlay. It just seems mad that there is nothing out there that does better mpg than a 30 year old clockwork diesel so much for progress. Granted most are more powerful but the ones that are 20 bhp more are generally significantly worse mpg.

As I said to start with I already knew the answer was likely rebuild or replace like for like. Thanks gents I guess start looking at it.

Mike

The thing is, what can you buy for a “reasonable outlay”, and how long will it be before said unknown, second hand engine from a scrapper is in the same position as your current engine, needing its own rebuild?  
 

Rebuild the 200, perhaps consider some performance tweaks like having Turner Engineering gas flow the head and one of those higher performance turbocharger cores that seem to get positive feedback.  The vehicle is already setup for the mountings, transmission and plumbing, so it is the most reliable, practical solution with the least drawbacks.